Is plagiarism possible?

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Mino
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Is plagiarism possible?

Post by Mino » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:34 am

Hey guys,

So I've been operating my own small label to distribute music either made by myself or various people I know and been copyrighting and managing catalog items and such for a bit now and I've run into an interesting question that I think the genre has almost never broached: is plagiarism or distinguishable elements in noise music a possibility to achieve in the context of "ownership" in a composition? What are your thoughts on this?

Personally I think it's impossible to plagiarize anything in the genre because of how expansive and unorthodox the elements are, but the distinguishing bit can't really be identified in legal terms. I don't use sheet music for the genre at all and can't make a valid argument in my mind to say that a certain type of feedback or distortion is or can be distinguished from another. Pretty interesting to me.
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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by xdugef » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:45 am

Sure it is.. although not in regards to composition but in terms of people taking entire or parts of another person's work and publishing it as their own.

Otherwise HNW is not usually composed of notes so I don't think you can claim somebody stole your melody.

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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by jliat » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:39 pm

In certain theories of noise because of its lack of structure 'musical' plagiarism is not possible. Just as in the plastic arts with the likes of Duchamp. What is possible is theoretical plagiarism, which would be someone now proposing a Harsh Wall of Meaningless Noise as their original idea, knowing that it was not, being aware of The Rita, Vomir et al. (To plagiarise one has to know what one is proposing as one's own is not.) Or for instance using some Noise from another, and claiming it your own. It would though be not plagiarism to use some others noise and give a reference to its source. That's OK intellectually though copyright is another matter, it depends I think on how much of the original source one uses.
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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by xdugef » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:57 pm

jliat wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:39 pm
it depends I think on how much of the original source one uses.
In regards to copyright it's not simply a matter of how little of a source you use although very unlikely anyone would know you had used a 41000th of a second long sample. The amount used with other factors determine the outcome. So less is better in determining fair use but there is no rule that if you use less than a second for example you're in the clear. Also making changes to the source do not mute a copyright infringement case because it becomes a derivative work.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... 28112.html

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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by jliat » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:33 pm

xdugef wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:57 pm
jliat wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:39 pm
it depends I think on how much of the original source one uses.
In regards to copyright it's not simply a matter of how little of a source you use although very unlikely anyone would know you had used a 41000th of a second long sample.
This would be impossible as its just a single number, and such numbers are not copyright. (+32767 - -32768). Obviously we are talking digitally not analogue. But it raises a less than pedantic idea. Is it possible to copyright a number. Ones first reaction is no. 3, 7 ,8.. are not copyright. But all digital data, DVDs, CDs and software are just very big binary numbers. "just".... Moreover large primes are worth money as they are used in encryption.... !
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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by xdugef » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:02 pm

jliat wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:33 pm
xdugef wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:57 pm
jliat wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:39 pm
it depends I think on how much of the original source one uses.
In regards to copyright it's not simply a matter of how little of a source you use although very unlikely anyone would know you had used a 41000th of a second long sample.
This would be impossible as its just a single number, and such numbers are not copyright. (+32767 - -32768). Obviously we are talking digitally not analogue. But it raises a less than pedantic idea. Is it possible to copyright a number. Ones first reaction is no. 3, 7 ,8.. are not copyright. But all digital data, DVDs, CDs and software are just very big binary numbers. "just".... Moreover large primes are worth money as they are used in encryption.... !
Well there are illegal numbers..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

This may not be practical but say one tried to circumvent copyright by only uploading one sample at a time of a song. I'm pretty sure that if this person uploaded a sequence of samples that could be reassembled into the song it may not be considered fair use.

P2p file transfer for example breaks a file into small pieces that on their own don't sound like the song they may contain part but that doesn't seem like it has prevented successful copyright lawsuits.
Last edited by xdugef on Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by xdugef » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:52 pm


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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by xdugef » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:56 pm

Otherwise here's a discussion about copyrighting a particular number.
http://ipnotions.com/2007/05/you-can-co ... ot-as.html

Also important to note that it's still usually an infringement to distribute software ( assuming it's not open source and even open source has stipulations about how it is distributed ) that as you say is just a large binary number even if it won't run without a key.

For example this guy is facing jail time for making copies of recovery CDs that even though the software they contained could be downloaded free and the discs could only be used on computers that already had a valid Microsoft license.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latime ... f_amp=true

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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by WhiteWarlock » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:26 pm

Plagiarism pertains strictly to words(vocals)?
The other is directly stealing sound recording source...
& not in some sanctioned remix

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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by xdugef » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:45 pm

WhiteWarlock wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:26 pm
Plagiarism pertains strictly to words(vocals)?
It's not limited to words

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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by WhiteWarlock » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:05 pm

Plagiarism is the "wrongful appropriation" and "stealing and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions" and the representation of them as one's own original work.

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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by xdugef » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:31 pm

WhiteWarlock wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:05 pm
Plagiarism is the "wrongful appropriation" and "stealing and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions" and the representation of them as one's own original work.
Using an image, video or piece of music in a work you have produced without receiving proper permission or providing appropriate citation is plagiarism. The following activities are very common in today’s society. Despite their popularity, they still count as plagiarism.

https://www.plagiarism.org/article/what-is-plagiarism

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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by jliat » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:24 pm

Interesting points. I'll just add that in academia it was once the greatest crime. Any work found using it getting zero, and in the case of a student reprimanded. I left teaching 10 years ago, but by then it was ignored in many cases.
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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by xdugef » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:56 am

jliat wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:24 pm
Interesting points. I'll just add that in academia it was once the greatest crime. Any work found using it getting zero, and in the case of a student reprimanded. I left teaching 10 years ago, but by then it was ignored in many cases.
Now everybody is a plagiarist! :lol:

http://www.jliat.com/ntwicn/ntwicn.html

My dad did tell me about a couple of times students in the program he taught at were caught plagiarizing.. he said in general students by the late 90's would copy things from the internet without really thinking about how easy it is to find said thing again using a search engine. But in one case a student wrote something that was above his ability and he thought it sounded familiar and it was because it was from a book he had read. The student was perplexed that he had been caught using something not readily accessible on the Internets.

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Re: Is plagiarism possible?

Post by RasTheDestroyer » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:39 am

An anecdote: On the bus, years ago, I once gave a guy that looked suspiciously like Lil Uzi Vert a copy of my CD-only mixtape, "I wanna fuck Ellen Page"..about a week later, Lil Uzi Vert came out with LUV is Rage . Coincidence? Maybe.

As far as noise goes:

A. I think most people wouldn't go towards the trouble of claiming a noise track as their own, is there really such a thing as a casual noise fan/listener who doesn't make noise in some shape or form?

and B. After a while, noise sounds the same, or at least overlaps, it'd be a bit hard to find plaigirisms unless both parties run in the same circles
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