Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Talk about music gear for noise music

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Fletcher
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Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by Fletcher » Wed May 01, 2019 1:21 am

How much control do you like to have over the noise you create?

Do you fully improvise each time you record / perform?

Do you like to have repeatability? Take photographs / remember settings / configurations?

Thought it would be an interesting point of discussion.

I mainly feel like I am "guiding" my setup towards a direction, with the results being largely out of my control.

Sometimes it sounds pleasing, other times I get frustrated that I cannot achieve what I set out to do.

Chaos is good, btw.

But also being able to reproduce certain sequences / layers. I have a note book and I take photographs, but not extensively at present.

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 12:23 am

I'm of the opinion as soon as one 'controls' deliberately with some criteria the process of sound making / manipulation then it ceases to be noise. This of course would include planning and noting down setups for future use. Likewise the finished 'work' i dont listen with any 'aesthetic' in mind. One work is for me as good as or as bad as any other. Everything else is music. Product of human deliberation, and look where that has got us....
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Thu May 02, 2019 6:12 am

pressing the record button is deliberate

Any kind of human determination spoils the noise aspect of noise if you want to be a jerk about it.. "noise" is a style not a science or a philosophy

Personally.. it kinda depends.. sometimes I have gear that is configured the same but I could never really get close to the same results if I tried but all the same elements are there.

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 7:36 am

xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:12 am
pressing the record button is deliberate
As would not pressing it... or getting out of bed in the morning... the OP was referring control repeatability Vs Improv Chaos.
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:12 am
Any kind of human determination spoils the noise aspect of noise if you want to be a jerk about it.. "noise" is a style not a science or a philosophy
Well it certainly isn't a science or a philosophy. It's IMO a phenomenon. The term* existed before the 'genre' and was applied to it because for some it appeared to share the features of noise**. Whereas I just fairly randomly without much thought mess about. If you say this is determined and if you want to get into the idea of determination and randomness then you are in the realms of science / philosophy.

*
Definition of noise

loud, confused, or senseless shouting or outcry

especially : one that lacks agreeable musical quality or is noticeably unpleasant

: any sound that is undesired or interferes with one's hearing of something


: an unwanted signal or a disturbance (such as static or a variation of voltage) in an electronic device or instrument (such as radio or television)
broadly : a disturbance interfering with the operation of a usually mechanical device or system

: electromagnetic radiation (such as light or radio waves) that is composed of several frequencies (see frequency sense 3b) and that involves random changes in frequency or amplitude



**
Music is an art form and cultural activity whose medium is sound organized in time. General definitions of music include common elements such as pitch (which governs melody and harmony), rhythm (and its associated concepts tempo, meter, and articulation), dynamics (loudness and softness), and the sonic qualities of timbre and texture (which are sometimes termed the "color" of a musical sound)...


Noise Music... This type of music tends to challenge the distinction that is made in conventional musical practices between musical and non-musical sound... It may incorporate live machine sounds, non-musical vocal techniques, physically manipulated audio media, processed sound recordings, field recording, computer-generated noise, stochastic process, and other randomly produced electronic signals such as distortion, feedback, static, hiss and hum. There may also be emphasis on high volume levels and lengthy, continuous pieces. More generally noise music may contain aspects such as improvisation, extended technique, cacophony and indeterminacy. In many instances, conventional use of melody, harmony, rhythm or pulse is dispensed with.
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Thu May 02, 2019 7:43 am

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:36 am

As would not pressing it... or getting out of bed in the morning... the OP was referring control repeatability Vs Improv Chaos.
Yes but you had to get a button to press in the first place or even decide that what you are hearing is "noise".

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:36 am

Noise Music... This type of music tends to challenge the distinction that is made in conventional musical practices between musical and non-musical sound... It may incorporate live machine sounds, non-musical vocal techniques, physically manipulated audio media, processed sound recordings, field recording, computer-generated noise, stochastic process, and other randomly produced electronic signals such as distortion, feedback, static, hiss and hum. There may also be emphasis on high volume levels and lengthy, continuous pieces. More generally noise music may contain aspects such as improvisation, extended technique, cacophony and indeterminacy. In many instances, conventional use of melody, harmony, rhythm or pulse is dispensed with.
[/quote]

There's alot of room for interpretation and personal taste in that explanation.. so...

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am

xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:43 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:36 am

As would not pressing it... or getting out of bed in the morning... the OP was referring control repeatability Vs Improv Chaos.
Yes but you had to get a button to press in the first place or even decide that what you are hearing is "noise".
Sure. And? So you are saying when some techie generates white noise for testing it isn't noise? Or a jet engine doesn't make noise, or the noise isn't noise on shortwave radio? And that because such things resembled what some got into back in the 90s the term noise wasn't fitting?
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:43 am

There's alot of room for interpretation and personal taste in that explanation.. so...
Of course. I make noise works by random improvisation. It is IMO called noise because it resembled what was previously called noise. Harsh loud un structured sounds...
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Thu May 02, 2019 8:59 am

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
So you are saying when some techie generates white noise for testing it isn't noise?
No in that context they have a distinct objective and need noise for a technical reason as opposed to a stylistic or subjective one.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
Or a jet engine doesn't make noise, or the noise isn't noise on shortwave radio?
In most cases those are the results of phenomena and unintentional.. and then there are people who modify their cars to be louder for subjective and stylistic reasons.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
And that because such things resembled what some got into back in the 90s the term noise wasn't fitting?
Uh yes if you take recordings of phenomena and do stuff with it for stylistic or subjective reasons then it's headed towards being "noise" instead of noise.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
Of course. I make noise works by random improvisation. It is IMO called noise because it resembled what was previously called noise. Harsh loud un structured sounds...
Randomness by what means? Tea leaves.. do you show up to your studio and meditate until the randomness of the universe leaves you a recording?

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am

xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:59 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
So you are saying when some techie generates white noise for testing it isn't noise?
No in that context they have a distinct objective and need noise for a technical reason as opposed to a stylistic or subjective one.
I can go with this, context makes an object different. A urinal in a gallery makes it ART. But why cant I have a subjective stylistic reason to make noise which isn't organised music?
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:59 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
Or a jet engine doesn't make noise, or the noise isn't noise on shortwave radio?
In most cases those are the results of phenomena and unintentional.. and then there are people who modify their cars to be louder for subjective and stylistic reasons.
Make them nosier you mean. Sure, and people let off fireworks, sometimes in daylight just for the noise. Or sometimes to scare off demons, but I don't think they consider that as 'music'. So some may use pedals and stuff to make noise music, they intend it to be 'good' noise music, whereas I've no such intentions. My intention is just to make some noisy electronic sounds. If you want to call that noise music - fine, but I don't.
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:59 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
And that because such things resembled what some got into back in the 90s the term noise wasn't fitting?
Uh yes if you take recordings of phenomena and do stuff with it for stylistic or subjective reasons then it's headed towards being "noise" instead of noise.
Well OK "noise" not noise. But not structured and with no criteria for good / bad and no prior determined plan. Just improv for the reason of wanting to make some "noise." And no other really... well pass the time....
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:59 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
Of course. I make noise works by random improvisation. It is IMO called noise because it resembled what was previously called noise. Harsh loud un structured sounds...
Randomness by what means? Tea leaves.. do you show up to your studio and meditate until the randomness of the universe leaves you a recording?
No - i just switch the things on and start twiddling things.... sometimes re-patching arbitrarily... which can mean no sound.. not even thinking - what will that do.. And sometimes sound which are almost human like speech, accidental though...
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by puddysjacket » Thu May 02, 2019 9:27 am

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:23 am
I'm of the opinion as soon as one 'controls' deliberately with some criteria the process of sound making / manipulation then it ceases to be noise. This of course would include planning and noting down setups for future use. Likewise the finished 'work' i dont listen with any 'aesthetic' in mind. One work is for me as good as or as bad as any other. Everything else is music. Product of human deliberation, and look where that has got us....

Dog what in the actual fuck are you talking about

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 9:35 am

puddysjacket wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:27 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:23 am
I'm of the opinion as soon as one 'controls' deliberately with some criteria the process of sound making / manipulation then it ceases to be noise. This of course would include planning and noting down setups for future use. Likewise the finished 'work' i dont listen with any 'aesthetic' in mind. One work is for me as good as or as bad as any other. Everything else is music. Product of human deliberation, and look where that has got us....

Dog what in the actual fuck are you talking about
I spontaneously improvise sounds fairly accidentally... which I call noise.
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 9:43 am

"pressing the record button is deliberate"

If the recording is caused by my deliberation, then what caused that deliberation... etc etc.
You either have an infinite regress of causes, tricky, or arrive at a non caused prime mover.

"do you show up to your studio and meditate until the randomness of the universe leaves you a recording? "

Well in away yes, but without the meditation. If the universe has a prime mover, then my actions are deliberated by that, if it does not then my actions are deliberated by randomness. You may think i deliberated, i might, but if the universe is random, and i'm its product.... then the deliberation is only a fiction. Monkeys at synthersisers, one will come up with 'pulse demon' eventually.
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Thu May 02, 2019 10:07 am

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
But why cant I have a subjective stylistic reason to make noise which isn't organised music?
You can .. maybe you just want to be annoying or get even with your neighbors.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
Make them nosier you mean. Sure, and people let off fireworks, sometimes in daylight just for the noise. Or sometimes to scare off demons, but I don't think they consider that as 'music'. So some may use pedals and stuff to make noise music, they intend it to be 'good' noise music, whereas I've no such intentions. My intention is just to make some noisy electronic sounds. If you want to call that noise music - fine, but I don't.
The funny thing is that the people who go to a Nascar and enjoy the roar of loud cars going around in circles would probably be perplexed by a Vomir performance or by drone music made on a Tampura.

Anyway there's reams of arguments for why "noise" is "music".
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
Just improv for the reason of wanting to make some "noise." And no other really... well pass the time....
Yes well most art and music or "noise" is masturbatory
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
No - i just switch the things on and start twiddling things.... sometimes re-patching arbitrarily... which can mean no sound.. not even thinking - what will that do.. And sometimes sound which are almost human like speech, accidental though...
Yeah but since you picked a bunch of pieces of audio equipment with inputs and outputs and you plugged in the power there's a high chance of getting results. I don't know that I've heard anything by you that sounded at all like it had been made arbitrarily.

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 10:32 am

xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:07 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
But why cant I have a subjective stylistic reason to make noise which isn't organised music?
You can .. maybe you just want to be annoying or get even with your neighbors.
Thanks! On the right is a Canadian - has a violin shop - makes electric violins and is in a Neil Young tribute band... left is a guy who does Lennon numbers. So I use headphones and try not to be annoying.
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:07 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
Make them nosier you mean. Sure, and people let off fireworks, sometimes in daylight just for the noise. Or sometimes to scare off demons, but I don't think they consider that as 'music'. So some may use pedals and stuff to make noise music, they intend it to be 'good' noise music, whereas I've no such intentions. My intention is just to make some noisy electronic sounds. If you want to call that noise music - fine, but I don't.
The funny thing is that the people who go to a Nascar and enjoy the roar of loud cars going around in circles would probably be perplexed by a Vomir performance or by drone music made on a Tampura.

Anyway there's reams of arguments for why "noise" is "music".
Sure. Unfortunately or not there is no absolute answer. I mean you can get LP, CDs of Whale "music", tropical rain forests, waves and the like... but there is quite a consensus regarding why the genre 'noise music' was so called. Unpleasant - dissonant sounds compared with the more traditional musics.
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:07 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
Just improv for the reason of wanting to make some "noise." And no other really... well pass the time....
Yes well most art and music or "noise" is masturbatory
I think you have a difficult argument there. For one, human music making is at least 40,000 years old so much without any known reason, western music for a good few hundred years was either profane ballads, made to please others, or religious, made to please God. Quite a bit just made for the money. In my case i'd also think not, as I've said i'm not bothered about it being good or bad...
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:07 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
No - i just switch the things on and start twiddling things.... sometimes re-patching arbitrarily... which can mean no sound.. not even thinking - what will that do.. And sometimes sound which are almost human like speech, accidental though...
Yeah but since you picked a bunch of pieces of audio equipment with inputs and outputs and you plugged in the power there's a high chance of getting results. I don't know that I've heard anything by you that sounded at all like it had been made arbitrarily.
You conflate the preparation and choices with making. The choices of equipment is for making of arbitrary noisy sounds. That is deliberate.
The improvisation as it occurs is not planned and the results not anticipated. No different in that sense to deliberately throwing dice to get a random number. Would you say that means they aren't random numbers?
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Thu May 02, 2019 11:02 am

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:32 am
Thanks! On the right is a Canadian - has a violin shop - makes electric violins and is in a Neil Young tribute band... left is a guy who does Lennon numbers. So I use headphones and try not to be annoying.
If no one hears it but you does it even exist? Also masturbatory.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
Sure. Unfortunately or not there is no absolute answer. I mean you can get LP, CDs of Whale "music", tropical rain forests, waves and the like... but there is quite a consensus regarding why the genre 'noise music' was so called. Unpleasant - dissonant sounds compared with the more traditional musics.
Well I lean toward sentient beings being capable of expressing themselves in a way that it could be called music. You might beable to objectively decide what many people find enjoyable but I doubt you'd ever getting a unimous consensus.. also most people enjoy sex so again masturbation.

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
I think you have a difficult argument there. For one, human music making is at least 40,000 years old so much without any known reason, western music for a good few hundred years was either profane ballads, made to please others, or religious, made to please God. Quite a bit just made for the money. In my case i'd also think not, as I've said i'm not bothered about it being good or bad...
Not a "hard" argument at all.. you know what has been around longer than music? Humans do things to stimulate and pleasure themselves.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 am
You conflate the preparation and choices with making. The choices of equipment is for making of arbitrary noisy sounds. That is deliberate.
The improvisation as it occurs is not planned and the results not anticipated. No different in that sense to deliberately throwing dice to get a random number. Would you say that means they aren't random numbers?
Sure but if you want to make electronic noises you probably wouldn't have much luck if you selected an unamplified violin.. so those preparatory choices have a significant influence on the outcome.

Personally though when I am setting up a new patch I do like to record as often I will find things along the way that I like. Eventually I'll have a patch that I'll use a bunch of times and then eventually tear down and start over.

If I'm feeling really frisky I'll grab a bunch of pedals from the pile and see what happens.

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 am

xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:02 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:32 am
Thanks! On the right is a Canadian - has a violin shop - makes electric violins and is in a Neil Young tribute band... left is a guy who does Lennon numbers. So I use headphones and try not to be annoying.
If no one hears it but you does it even exist? Also masturbatory.
The noise works go onto soundcloud and have listeners... I think its generally thought that things can exist without humans, from Dinosaurs through to the big bang.

As for masturbatory - no - I make these what best can be described as purposeful to no purpose. I'm drinking a beer now, for pleasure, but this also is not masturbatory...
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:02 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
Sure. Unfortunately or not there is no absolute answer. I mean you can get LP, CDs of Whale "music", tropical rain forests, waves and the like... but there is quite a consensus regarding why the genre 'noise music' was so called. Unpleasant - dissonant sounds compared with the more traditional musics.
Well I lean toward sentient beings being capable of expressing themselves in a way that it could be called music. You might beable to objectively decide what many people find enjoyable but I doubt you'd ever getting a unimous consensus.. also most people enjoy sex so again masturbation.
I agree with expression via music, sentient beings are also capable of selling coca cola by use of music, no self expression, or providing music for people to dance to.... or developing new ideas and methods within music itself without recourse to self expression. As for what people find enjoyable I've no real idea. Pop music, sales? If most people enjoy sex they seem to want to do it with others which is not masturbation. I mean prostitutes seem to exist because of this...
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:02 am



Not a "hard" argument at all.. you know what has been around longer than music? Humans do things to stimulate and pleasure themselves.
But the reason nature makes sex pleasurable is order to procreate. And kids are not always fun so i'm told. Even animals will sacrifice themselves to protect their young. And work hard feeding them. At least the 'higher' forms.
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:02 am


Sure but if you want to make electronic noises you probably wouldn't have much luck if you selected an unamplified violin.. so those preparatory choices have a significant influence on the outcome.
Sure - and if you want randomness a die with sixes on all sides wont be of use. You can see the use of sound sources in noise, computer or shakers with contact mics to pedals and, no input mixers, synths the same teleology is present.
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:02 am
Personally though when I am setting up a new patch I do like to record as often I will find things along the way that I like. Eventually I'll have a patch that I'll use a bunch of times and then eventually tear down and start over.

If I'm feeling really frisky I'll grab a bunch of pedals from the pile and see what happens.
Fine, when i'm improvising what i like is irrelevent.
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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