Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Talk about music gear for noise music

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Fletcher
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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by Fletcher » Thu May 02, 2019 12:09 pm

Good discussion, thanks :mrgreen:

Personally I tend to set up my equipment with an idea in mind or an intention to create a specific kind of sound.

It usually doesn't go that way and something else happens. I try to record everything and listen back if I think it was a worthwhile session.

But then ill reconfigure stuff and try to get where I wanted to be. Learning what equipment is capable of seems important to me. Currently in the midst of not buying ANY gear for as long as possible to see what I can conjure up from the stuff in hand.

I guess this "obedience" stems from my "techno" background where song structures and track ideas were integral at the outset. Throwing most of that out of the window has been challenging in itself. Learning to truly be free and improvise is liberating and also tricky.

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Thu May 02, 2019 12:48 pm

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 am
The noise works go onto soundcloud and have listeners... I think its generally thought that things can exist without humans
Yes but human have to have existed in order for their to be sound cloud and for you to have uploaded it in the first place.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 am
As for masturbatory - no - I make these what best can be described as purposeful to no purpose. I'm drinking a beer now, for pleasure, but this also is not masturbatory...
Doing things for pleasure is a purpose and equally describes masturbation.

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
I agree with expression via music, sentient beings are also capable of selling coca cola by use of music, no self expression, or providing music for people to dance to.... or developing new ideas and methods within music itself without recourse to self expression. As for what people find enjoyable I've no real idea. Pop music, sales? If most people enjoy sex they seem to want to do it with others which is not masturbation. I mean prostitutes seem to exist because of this...


Depending on who you talk to if it's not for procreation it's the work of the devil anyway.. so...
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
But the reason nature makes sex pleasurable is order to procreate. And kids are not always fun so i'm told. Even animals will sacrifice themselves to protect their young. And work hard feeding them. At least the 'higher' forms.


Right so how much would you sacrifice to protect noise?
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
Fine, when i'm improvising what i like is irrelevent.
That's surely not the case.. I mean you're probably going to gravitate towards sounds you like or scratch that itch or whatever gets you off right?

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Thu May 02, 2019 12:51 pm

Fletcher wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:09 pm
Personally I tend to set up my equipment with an idea in mind or an intention to create a specific kind of sound.

It usually doesn't go that way and something else happens. I try to record everything and listen back if I think it was a worthwhile session.
Heh.. yeah that happens to me.. I don't try too hard to do any particular thing any more because it's not enjoyable. I tried collaborating recently with somebody who feels very differently about it and it has not been enjoyable and we'll probably never come to an agreement on the results. In another case I did a recording session with somebody and wanted to upload the results and they we like no way.. I like to curate everything I put out and was like .. well this was fun but what the hell.. oh well.. anyway this is why I almost never do collabs.

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by puddysjacket » Thu May 02, 2019 6:23 pm

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:35 am
puddysjacket wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:27 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:23 am
I'm of the opinion as soon as one 'controls' deliberately with some criteria the process of sound making / manipulation then it ceases to be noise. This of course would include planning and noting down setups for future use. Likewise the finished 'work' i dont listen with any 'aesthetic' in mind. One work is for me as good as or as bad as any other. Everything else is music. Product of human deliberation, and look where that has got us....

Dog what in the actual fuck are you talking about
I spontaneously improvise sounds fairly accidentally... which I call noise.
But you're controlling things deliberately, are you not?

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 11:40 pm

xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:48 pm
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 am
The noise works go onto soundcloud and have listeners... I think its generally thought that things can exist without humans
Yes but human have to have existed in order for their to be sound cloud and for you to have uploaded it in the first place.

You asked if no one hears it does it exist, the answer I gave was things can and have and probably will exist when there are no humans.
So sure humans can make stuff. Deliberately and accidentally.
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:48 pm
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 am
As for masturbatory - no - I make these what best can be described as purposeful to no purpose. I'm drinking a beer now, for pleasure, but this also is not masturbatory...
Doing things for pleasure is a purpose and equally describes masturbation.
It's purposeful but 'best described' it has no other reason, no end. Your description re masturbation is wrong, sexual intercourse is often done for pleasure and it is not masturbation. As are lots of other things done for pleasure are not masturbatory. The purposeless of masturbation is used as a metaphor for pleasure which has no end other than that, and doesn't involve others. However that is not always true of masturbation. Emitting bodily fluids, urinating, spitting and vomiting could also be described as masturbatory, but they are not. Saying something is masturbatory is generally derogative of self pleasure with no purpose.
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:48 pm
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
I agree with expression via music, sentient beings are also capable of selling coca cola by use of music, no self expression, or providing music for people to dance to.... or developing new ideas and methods within music itself without recourse to self expression. As for what people find enjoyable I've no real idea. Pop music, sales? If most people enjoy sex they seem to want to do it with others which is not masturbation. I mean prostitutes seem to exist because of this...


Depending on who you talk to if it's not for procreation it's the work of the devil anyway.. so...
So when you said sexual intercourse was masturbatory you were mistaken.
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:48 pm
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
But the reason nature makes sex pleasurable is order to procreate. And kids are not always fun so i'm told. Even animals will sacrifice themselves to protect their young. And work hard feeding them. At least the 'higher' forms.


Right so how much would you sacrifice to protect noise?
I seem to spend a deal of time arguing its difference to music, and its significance, despite the waves of failed heavy metalers, PE and industrials deciding to make musical expressive noise and get famous by making really good "noise music".
xdugef wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:48 pm
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
Fine, when i'm improvising what i like is irrelevent.
That's surely not the case.. I mean you're probably going to gravitate towards sounds you like or scratch that itch or whatever gets you off right?
No. It would make re-listening boring. When I play back a track I've very little idea of what will come next. A couple of times I made pieces monitoring before the final effects so had no real idea of the actual recording. I suppose I could record without monitoring, bit 'arty' though. BTW you seem to think art is just about pleasure, but there are plenty of examples where its not. Movies, music... most artforms I think can be sad, frightening, avant garde art boring, unpleasant.

And there is a deal of 'philosophy' as to why people 'like' - is it like? to be shocked, and saddened. Have you ever seen a Sam Beckett, play?
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Thu May 02, 2019 11:46 pm

puddysjacket wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:23 pm
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:35 am
puddysjacket wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:27 am



Dog what in the actual fuck are you talking about
I spontaneously improvise sounds fairly accidentally... which I call noise.
But you're controlling things deliberately, are you not?
not in the sense of deliberate...
de·lib·er·ate (dĭ-lĭb′ər-ĭt)
adj.
1. Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects;
2. Arising from or marked by careful consideration: a deliberate decision. See Synonyms at voluntary.
3. Unhurried and careful: moved at a deliberate pace.

To consider (a matter) carefully and often slowly, as by weighing alternatives.

[Latin dēlīberātus, past participle of dēlīberāre, to consider, weigh : dē-, de- + lībrāre, to balance (from lībra, a balance, scales).]
It was listening to Merzbow back in the 90s "playing" with a Synthi AKS and I thought 'this guy doesn't know what he is doing, or doesn't care'

John Milton Cage Jr. (September 5, 1912 – August 12, 1992) was an American composer, music theorist, artist, and philosopher. A pioneer of indeterminacy in music, electroacoustic music, and non-standard use of musical instruments, Cage was one of the leading figures of the post-war avant-garde. Critics have lauded him as one of the most influential composers of the 20th century.[
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Fri May 03, 2019 12:05 am

Fletcher wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:09 pm


I guess this "obedience" stems from my "techno" background where song structures and track ideas were integral at the outset. Throwing most of that out of the window has been challenging in itself. Learning to truly be free and improvise is liberating and also tricky.
I think that can be "problem" for people getting into noise from a more structured "musical" background. Way back at college one of my tutors was a jazz musician who got into improv, he wanted some students with no musical experience (of making music) to make percussion sounds. I was one of 4 who did.
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Fri May 03, 2019 4:48 am

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:40 pm

You asked if no one hears it does it exist, the answer I gave was things can and have and probably will exist when there are no humans.
So sure humans can make stuff. Deliberately and accidentally.
Yes but if you pick a bunch of audio gear and then improv it's not like you are making sound by accident.



jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 am
Saying something is masturbatory is generally derogative of self pleasure with no purpose.
The general population would think calling something noise is derogatory.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
So when you said sexual intercourse was masturbatory you were mistaken.
You are mistaken to say I ever said that specifically.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
I seem to spend a deal of time arguing its difference to music, and its significance, despite the waves of failed heavy metalers, PE and industrials deciding to make musical expressive noise and get famous by making really good "noise music".
What's the significance?

jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
No. It would make re-listening boring. When I play back a track I've very little idea of what will come next.
In terms of masturbation I think that's called the stranger..
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
BTW you seem to think art is just about pleasure, but there are plenty of examples where its not. Movies, music... most artforms I think can be sad, frightening, avant garde art boring, unpleasant.
Surely you don't think I have such a one dimensional view of what could be considered pleasure... I mean I like noise for fuck's sake.
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
And there is a deal of 'philosophy' as to why people 'like' - is it like? to be shocked, and saddened. Have you ever seen a Sam Beckett, play?
You are good at changing the subject, but you are going to have to try harder then that.

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by Bipolar Fucking Joe » Fri May 03, 2019 6:37 am

I make a couple of small set ups that can play themselves, making generative sounds. Then switch them on and off randomly, without real conscious thought.

Daniel "The Shock Technician" plays in a way that has a very classical music, Bolero-esque composition, which I aped.

On the philosophy of noise, recorded noise isn't random. I didn't bother to read through the usual Xdugef / Jliat never ending debate, but that's something I always thought about.

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Fri May 03, 2019 6:49 am

Bipolar Fucking Joe wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 6:37 am
I didn't bother to read through the usual Xdugef / Jliat never ending debate, but that's something I always thought about.
Short version.. is making noise masturbatory?

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Fri May 03, 2019 6:51 am

Bipolar Fucking Joe wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 6:37 am
I make a couple of small set ups that can play themselves, making generative sounds. Then switch them on and off randomly, without real conscious thought.

Daniel "The Shock Technician" plays in a way that has a very classical music, Bolero-esque composition, which I aped.

On the philosophy of noise, recorded noise isn't random. I didn't bother to read through the usual Xdugef / Jliat never ending debate, but that's something I always thought about.
Random / Determined is a tricky subject. I think the "best" easy way is to sample any audio without any signal and amplify the hiss, which I've been told is the noise made by electrons moving randomly...

Not sure why you think recording this wouldn't be random?
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Fri May 03, 2019 7:02 am

xdugef wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 6:49 am
Bipolar Fucking Joe wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 6:37 am
I didn't bother to read through the usual Xdugef / Jliat never ending debate, but that's something I always thought about.
Short version.. is making noise masturbatory?
It can be, and then not. Do you think Vomir HNW masturbatory? Do you consider xdugef's performances masturbatory?
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by xdugef » Fri May 03, 2019 7:15 am

jliat wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:02 am
Do you think Vomir HNW masturbatory?
Vomir wears a plastic bag on his head and encourages the audience to do the same...

David Carradine accidentally dies doing the same..
Image
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-carr ... CD20090702
jliat wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:02 am
Do you consider xdugef's performances masturbatory?
Here's the Xdugef Trump Truck with uninflated Dick Nipples
Image

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Fri May 03, 2019 7:36 am

xdugef wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:48 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:40 pm

You asked if no one hears it does it exist, the answer I gave was things can and have and probably will exist when there are no humans.
So sure humans can make stuff. Deliberately and accidentally.
Yes but if you pick a bunch of audio gear and then improv it's not like you are making sound by accident
One is making accidental sound, not sound by accident. The two things are not the same.
Accident (an event that happens by chance....) as opposed to deliberation in music (Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects; Arising from or marked by careful consideration: a deliberate decision.) So :chin: you deny Cage made indeterminate music?
xdugef wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:48 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 am
Saying something is masturbatory is generally derogative of self pleasure with no purpose.
The general population would think calling something noise is derogatory.
I'd go along with that, examples being loud un-harmonics, feedback, distortion - and when found in 'music' aptly called noise. You might say noise is more S&M than masturbatory - music for bondage...
xdugef wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:48 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
So when you said sexual intercourse was masturbatory you were mistaken.
You are mistaken to say I ever said that specifically.
You might beable to objectively decide what many people find enjoyable but I doubt you'd ever getting a unimous consensus.. also most people enjoy sex so again masturbation.
Seems specific enough from my reading.
xdugef wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:48 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
I seem to spend a deal of time arguing its difference to music, and its significance, despite the waves of failed heavy metalers, PE and industrials deciding to make musical expressive noise and get famous by making really good "noise music".
What's the significance?
http://www.jliat.com/txts/Anidiotsguidetonoise.pdf

http://www.jliat.com/txts/Why%20noise%20is%20god.pdf

http://www.jliat.com/txts/noise-is-stupid.pdf

http://www.jliat.com/txts/Introduction.pdf

http://www.jliat.com/txts/The%20ontogra ... 0noise.pdf
xdugef wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:48 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
No. It would make re-listening boring. When I play back a track I've very little idea of what will come next.
In terms of masturbation I think that's called the stranger..
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
BTW you seem to think art is just about pleasure, but there are plenty of examples where its not. Movies, music... most artforms I think can be sad, frightening, avant garde art boring, unpleasant.
Surely you don't think I have such a one dimensional view of what could be considered pleasure... I mean I like noise for fuck's sake.
So is it masturbatory for you?
xdugef wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:48 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
And there is a deal of 'philosophy' as to why people 'like' - is it like? to be shocked, and saddened. Have you ever seen a Sam Beckett, play?
You are good at changing the subject, but you are going to have to try harder then that.
Changing the subject? That sounds like a move towards an ad hominem...

So who is trying to change the subject, i cant say i like Vomir's work anymore than i like a Beckett play... art can be cathartic "Catharsis (from Greek κάθαρσις katharsis meaning "purification" or "cleansing" or "clarification") is, e.g., the purification and purgation of emotions—particularly pity and fear—through art["
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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Re: Control / repeatability vs. Improvisation / chaos

Post by jliat » Fri May 03, 2019 7:41 am

xdugef wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:15 am
jliat wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:02 am
Do you think Vomir HNW masturbatory?
Vomir wears a plastic bag on his head and encourages the audience to do the same...

David Carradine accidentally dies doing the same..
Are you saying David Carradine died listening to a Vomir track? :wink:

At the Vomir performance I attended, I didn't wear the bag and didn't see anyone masturbating, or is it the case that a kidnapper putting a bag over the head of a victim is encouraging masturbation.

And you haven't answered my question re xdugef.
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... variations
https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/jliat ... tions-from
"The most irrational thing to do is to make something worthless, with no political emotional or entertaining purpose."

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