Concepts

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melkobukva
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Re: Concepts

Post by melkobukva » Fri May 11, 2018 5:32 am

jliat wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 1:24 am
Of course.... oops!
Absolutely, and we don't even need tailor-made self-referencing liars. The very use of language is the problem. People take a complex sign system which emerged to make interactions with the environment more efficient and start feeding it back into itself untill there's no headroom for anything but cognitive noise. Why use language to map the world when we can use it to brainfuck ourselves into catatonic state making maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps of maps...
Nothing is true, nothing is false, everything is both true and false at the same time, but it's also neither because nothing makes sense.

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melkobukva
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Re: Concepts

Post by melkobukva » Fri May 11, 2018 5:41 am

amishrobots wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 10:57 pm
I mean, just saying "You are wrong." isn't even a proper argument; you're just saying the opposite of what I said, negating my statement without any proof or reasoning or logic.
Says a guy who justifies his viewpoint with I would rathers and I feels.

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jliat
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Re: Concepts

Post by jliat » Fri May 11, 2018 7:21 am

melkobukva wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 5:32 am
jliat wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 1:24 am
Of course.... oops!
...
Nothing is true, nothing is false, everything is both true and false at the same time, but it's also neither because nothing makes sense.
I'm more of the opinion that a certain sense can be made, but never an absolute one, so the failure to do so is kind of given in the sense i make of your post...

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melkobukva
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Re: Concepts

Post by melkobukva » Fri May 11, 2018 9:51 am

jliat wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:21 am
I'm more of the opinion that a certain sense can be made, but never an absolute one, so the failure to do so is kind of given in the sense i make of your post...
This depends on how much of external reality we allow into the linguistic feedback loop. Words make sense when they are connected to things on at least some level. For people who don't think too much everything already makes perfect sense.

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MKULTRA
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Re: Concepts

Post by MKULTRA » Fri May 11, 2018 10:00 am


Can Zero be created?
"With enough gain you can achieve anything." - C.Rochambeau

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Concepts

Post by WhiteWarlock » Fri May 11, 2018 10:39 am

beware because you may accidentally get a chain reaction attempting :P

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jliat
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Re: Concepts

Post by jliat » Sat May 12, 2018 12:05 am

Image

page 158-162 "Many Zeros"....Barrow explains how mathematicians can create many different zeros...

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melkobukva
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Re: Concepts

Post by melkobukva » Sat May 12, 2018 4:41 am

Every complete lattice has a zero. So you'd create a zero every time you created a complete lattice. The real question is whether it is at all possible to create mathematical objects of any kind, or all of them already exist, and you only discover them.

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jliat
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Re: Concepts

Post by jliat » Sat May 12, 2018 5:28 am

Yes i'm aware of the 'problem'. It seems like things like primes are discovered.... maybe though they are consequences of
initial axioms or rules. So like in chess or football, given the rules certain moves are created / possible / discovered as a consequence of the rules... so a complex theorem is like a Beethoven symphony. Maybe?

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melkobukva
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Re: Concepts

Post by melkobukva » Sat May 12, 2018 6:27 am

jliat wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 5:28 am
Yes i'm aware of the 'problem'. It seems like things like primes are discovered.... maybe though they are consequences of
initial axioms or rules. So like in chess or football, given the rules certain moves are created / possible / discovered as a consequence of the rules... so a complex theorem is like a Beethoven symphony. Maybe?
In a sense, yes. Completing exercises in counterpoint and classical harmony feels very much like solving mathematical problems.

The similarity also extends to a more general level. Just as there are no universal rules of music, there are no universal rules of mathematics. Everyone who sought them ultimately failed.

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MKULTRA
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Re: Concepts

Post by MKULTRA » Sat May 12, 2018 2:54 pm


Zero is nothing. How do you create nothing?
"With enough gain you can achieve anything." - C.Rochambeau

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Concepts

Post by WhiteWarlock » Sat May 12, 2018 3:11 pm

Subtraction
Vat of Acid kinda half assed works yet so messy
hogs are the suggested method
oops misread your question again :P

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melkobukva
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Re: Concepts

Post by melkobukva » Sat May 12, 2018 3:25 pm

MKULTRA wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:54 pm

How do you create nothing?
I don't know. Just comes naturally, I guess. Try to start with not creating anything, then go with the flow.

Hope that helps.

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jliat
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Re: Concepts

Post by jliat » Sat May 12, 2018 11:46 pm

MKULTRA wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:54 pm

Zero is nothing. How do you create nothing?
Well i think zero in mathematics is more a property / process in a number system, not a 'thing'.

How do you create nothing.... subtract the thing from itself.... interesting as i'm no good at maths - but its to do with identity...
0 + x = x. But in computing identity is subtraction also. One way to check a password is to subtract
(the ascii values) what was entered from what is stored, if the result is zero then there is a match.

Other ways, well give me your bank details and i can empty your account, there will be nothing in it. You can empty a waste bin, or empty a bag, a pocket... or to be more poetic and less mechanistic, one can feel ones life to be empty. And this might arise by reading a poem...


Lying in a Hammock at William Duffy’s Farm in Pine Island, Minnesota
By James Wright

Over my head, I see the bronze butterfly,
Asleep on the black trunk,
Blowing like a leaf in green shadow.
Down the ravine behind the empty house,
The cowbells follow one another
Into the distances of the afternoon.
To my right,
In a field of sunlight between two pines,
The droppings of last year’s horses
Blaze up into golden stones.
I lean back, as the evening darkens and comes on.
A chicken hawk floats over, looking for home.
I have wasted my life.

.......

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

....

Mistah Kurtz -- he dead.
A penny for the Old Guy
I
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar
Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;
Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.
II
Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
In death's dream kingdom
These do not appear:
There, the eyes are
Sunlight on a broken column
There, is a tree swinging
And voices are
In the wind's singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.
Let me be no nearer
In death's dream kingdom
Let me also wear
Such deliberate disguises
Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
In a field
Behaving as the wind behaves
No nearer --
Not that final meeting
In the twilight kingdom
III
This is the dead land
This is cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man's hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.
Is it like this
In death's other kingdom
Waking alone
At the hour when we are
Trembling with tenderness
Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone.
IV
The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms
In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river
Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death's twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.
V
Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o'clock in the morning.
Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
Life is very long
Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

.........

Then of course there is philosophy... if you've got this far...

"philosophy ...[is] the organon of extinction"

From Nihil Unvbound - Ray Brassier.

:doh:

Hellitrey
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Re: Concepts

Post by Hellitrey » Thu May 17, 2018 7:09 pm

Lol i like it.

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