My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Talk about noise music. Reviews, rants, whatever.

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jliat
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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Sat May 12, 2018 10:10 am

melkobukva wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:06 am
.... you can call anything Noise, and it's Noise as long as enough NoiseGuide posters agree, so go buy a feedback looper ;)
I disagree. The forum relates to some 'thing' that exists regardless of the posters or the name its given, just as volcanoes et al. do. OK they might alter the NAME, so NOISE attaches to heavy metal, or Baroque music, but there would still be a sound phenomena that was once called noise.

So a carpentry forum would consist of posters into wood work... they may decide - or some newcomers that in fact aluminium is better and use the term 'carpentry' to denote metalwork using aluminium, but there would still be a thing - which once was called carpentry.

And both noise and carpentry have attributes... OK so say chainsaw sculpture might be a fringe activity... and some here are more into industrial and PE. But hardcore noise remains. And whatever you call it, if enough noiseguide posters decide to attach noise to violin concertos, then the noise of The Rita, Merzbow etc would require another name. However noise has other non musical definitions - SNR etc. Clipping... unwanted distortion and feedback, whitenoise, which share much of the phenomena of noise 'music'. So the name is apt.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by melkobukva » Sat May 12, 2018 11:59 am

jliat wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:10 am
And both noise and carpentry have attributes...
Indeed. The views of Noise held by individual posters are different but by no means arbitrary.

A music genre is a set of artists that are more similar to each other than to an arbitrary set of artists. That is, Vomir, Merzbow and Daniel Menche have more similarities between them than, let's say, Vomir, Kanye West and Hildegard von Bingen.

Genre audience is a set of people who share musical tastes to a significant degree. This is how people become members of genre audience, by seeking more music similar to what they already like. I hear Vomir, enjoy it, then google "music like Vomir" and get Merzbow and Daniel Menche. Somebody else likes Merzbow, googles "music like Merzbow", discovers Vomir. When this happens to enough people, you can have a dedicated forum. Not all posters need to share all their tastes. Maybe 30% hate Vomir, 30% hate Merzbow, 30% hate Daniel Menche, and 10% are spam bots. This still means that 60% are into Merzbow and measure "Noisiness" of other artists as, roughly speaking, similarity to Merzbow, and ditto for the other two.

So yes, the music that is statistically more likely to be considered Real Noise by Noise listeners is more likely to possess a number of attributes (vomirness, merzbowness, mencheness). They can be measured, numerically analysed and presented in a paper, perhaps entitled "On average, noise tracks have 183,7% more feedback loops than a control set of 1000 randomly selected tracks".

However, this is a statistical probability we're dealing with. There is no defined set of attributes all of which have to be present in every noise record. Any such a set proposed by one poster will get debated to death by his peers. At the same time, the statistical probablility of this forum turning into a gathering of violin aficionados is negligibly small.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Sun May 13, 2018 11:50 pm

What you say is interesting as it seems to argue that the audience is responsible for the genre. I've come across this idea in much of the philosophy of aesthetics, as no doubt that philosophy is created by philosophers who are audiences not creators.

So an alternative idea, and they might both be true, is that the genre is created not by or even for audiences – in the first place, but by certain intentions with regard to making something for oneself or as part of a given activity. This relates more to Modern Art than popular art. Within Art, the audience tends not to be as significant, or at least art in the past, this is not true of post-modern art, and so the high-art / popular art division no longer exists.

However it still remains true that a creative act which is not directed at an audience or is qualified by it can exist. I think that was true of the artists you cite.

Working in a genre can be similar to working in science. The subject, say biology, the development of a form, is undertaken for its sake, only after, if successful are the results published, pieces performed. Or at an extreme the work is done purely out of self interest. Much 'primitive' art is I think produced so.

Within a genre the similarity can be a shared interest in a particular form, which arises prior to any audience, and at times in spite of any. Whereas in popular culture the similarity is one which the “artists” see as being popular to an exiting audience – so they adopt that 'style'. The two motivations being quite different. Of course in the former a positive audience response may be hoped for, but it is not the motivation for the truly creative act. And historically there are examples of audiences rejecting such art. (and other examples like Dada where rejection via confrontation was desired, or where the art serviced a political / religious motivation...) And then there is a group of individuals who interested in the gear associated with noise, PE and industrial, from collecting through to making... which isn't about audiences, or 'original' creativity...



TLDR?

I can sum this up in a question asked when at college.

“Would you make art if on a desert island?”

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by melkobukva » Mon May 14, 2018 4:02 pm

I suppose we could remove the audience and develop a theory of "objective genre". A musicological taxonomy akin to the biological one. Identify a number of measureable characteristic sonic traits. Then gather the specimens that share enough of this musical DNA and give them a collective label, for instance, musicum tumultuosum to the relatives of Merzbow. We wouldn't be able to call them Noise Artists though, because this is a concept which belongs to pre-"objective genre" era. The labels will have to be all new.

As a pleasant bonus, we would become millionaires after selling this thing to Spotify, iTunes and everyone else. The biggest music sellers have been trying to develop something like this as a №1 priority, but no one succeeded yet.

-------

Suppose DJ Jamie is independent from the noise audience. He lives on a desert island, makes techno and calls it noise. On a neighboring island is MC Destructor, also independent from the noise audience. He makes hiphop and calls it noise. A shared interest in a particular form. Meanwhile, on the third island lives Larry Cusser who uses a contact microphone on his vacuum cleaner and runs the output into a DOD Death Metal, because he really likes Anal Cunt, but lost his BC Rich and his record collection in a shipwreck, so that's the best replacement he can get. He calls his music pornovacuum islandcore. Does the noise audience have a say in any of that?

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Mon May 14, 2018 11:36 pm

Why do the labels have to be new? There are very many examples of 'old' words being used to describe new things. You can travel in a railway carriage. Isn't it the case that much that is new is generally named by its creator and not from any audience. I think Harsh Noise Wall was coined by Sam McKinley … all three terms Wall, Harsh and Noise being already around. I'm aware of other sources for the terms used, critics (Impressionism, Minimalism, Krautrock ) and perhaps an audience. It just doesn't follow that being more objective so further delineating noise makes the original term wrong or redundant. I call things mice, not Mus musculus... Two main types, the small creatures and the things used on computers..As for not being able to call the work 'noise' as it belongs to a pre objective genre, that also doesn't follow. (A slowworm is a legless lizard)

As for your three islanders and names, in effect they are just using the same 'word' for two different things. This is not uncommon. In the UK people smoke fags. That is they do not kill homosexuals, they smoke cigarettes. The object to which the label attaches doesn't change. To like cheese is not to dislike fromage.

The term 'impressionism' was first used as a pejorative term for a painting of a sunset by Monet. It now relates to a specific group of artists. Someone might think or want to think they are working in that 'style' and so use the term. This for some would be inappropriate. For others not. The OP used the term to describe his 'style'. And it was pointed out that it was neither 'weird shit' or noise. But might be considered so by others. But this is down to not being aware of the Noise genre, which perhaps like Impressionism is now better and more accurately used for historical work or perhaps refer to something like Jazz does... Jazz is still 'possible' but still has recognizable traits and sub-divisions.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by melkobukva » Wed May 16, 2018 1:26 pm

jliat wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:36 pm
Why do the labels have to be new?
For the same reason biological labels have to be new. I was talking about specific labels within the context of "objective genre" taxonomy. Of course, nothing changes in regular communication, we'll be free to call Mus musculus "a mouse" and Musicus tumultuosus nipponicus "japanoise".
jliat wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:36 pm
Noise genre <...> is now better and more accurately used for historical work
Now this is a very interesting angle. Thank you.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Wed May 16, 2018 10:19 pm

melkobukva wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:26 pm
jliat wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:36 pm
Why do the labels have to be new?
For the same reason biological labels have to be new.
Doesn't follow. Why biology and not some other discipline. All the "objective genre" does is support what was thought "subjective". Though the 'subjective' here is in effect objective because of a consensus without which language would not work. - Physicists are quite happy to use terms like 'particle' even though that isn't the case, but we are not talking here of some objectivity which shows the consensus is wrong, but one that supports it. But your initial 'anything can be called noise then it is' is nothing like a refinement. Call a mouse a horse and its a horse, well no its not, and DNA makes no difference.

Moreover your resorting to biology and not some other science far from being objective is a 'backward move'

"In biology, a species is the basic unit of classification and a taxonomic rank, as well as a unit of biodiversity, but it has proven difficult to find a satisfactory definition. Scientists and conservationists need a species definition which allows them to work, regardless of the theoretical difficulties. If as Linnaeus thought, species were fixed, there would be no problem, but evolutionary processes cause species to change continually, and to grade into one another. "

But that doesn't mean anything can be called anything, or changing the name changes the 'thing'.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by melkobukva » Wed May 16, 2018 11:39 pm

If you don't like biology, look at http://paperscape.org/
This is an objective classification of research fields covered by arXiv.org.
The colors correspond to traditional "science genre" classification. The dots correspond to actual proximity of the papers with respect to their content. See how the dots of the same color don't all cluster together.
Another example can be found here: https://scitech-strategies.com/ - 20 million papers clustered using "a combination of citation analysis and text mining". Same story, there are plenty of areas where we can see a bowl of M&M's rather than neatly delineated "genres".
This shows that no, it is not the case that all the "objective genre" does is support what was thought "subjective".
Although if you (correctly) design and train a system to confirm your subjective bias, it will do just that. What would be the point of this exercise is another question. We can already hear that Merzbow and Vomir are more similar to each other than either of them is to Kanye West. There is no need for any further confirmation.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Thu May 17, 2018 12:36 am

melkobukva wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:39 pm
If you don't like biology, look at http://paperscape.org/
I've no particular dislike, I just thought its use of latin names inappropriate for discussing music / noise. My point is that its not a case of subjective bias if there is a consensus. (and your idea that if techno is called noise its noise is just wrong) The point is that music can be studied in detail 'objectively', its history, the influences from which it came and those it creates. Of course this isn't necessary, or is biology. Its just that some like to just enjoy the music or the paintings, whilst others undertake academic study. I was interested in the work Nick Collins did, and likewise was interested in using Standard Deviation. So for instance it showed a discontinuity in a Vomir track.. where one could not hear it... OK one may not be interested in that, or in X rays of paintings showing alterations. But some are.


And if one is wanting to work within a genre such study might be helpful.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by melkobukva » Thu May 17, 2018 1:24 am

jliat wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:36 am
The point is that music can be studied in detail 'objectively', its history, the influences from which it came and those it creates.
I would never debate any of that!
jliat wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:36 am
your idea that if techno is called noise its noise is just wrong
Or maybe it isn't. Power noise is techno that is called noise, and many people consider it a subgenre of noise. For example, here's RYM, a pretty major music site with hundreds of thousands of users:
https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/power+noise

Personally, I agree with you, not with RYM's classification, but...

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Thu May 17, 2018 1:43 am

Power Noise "Also known as: Rhythmic Noise, Distorted Beat Music" is not Noise, by which we mean Harsh Noise and HNW. Of course some will use the term 'Noise' very subjectively. As in 'turn down that noise' - where the noise is music one doesnt like. However there is also a 'musical genre' which goes by the name 'noise'.

"there is a simplistic distinction to be made between mainstream progressive bands [and i would add all music including classical & Distorted Beat Music] that harness noise and noises, bringing them into musicality as either background, moments of dramatic tension or linking strategy, and those on the other hand, who let noise be itself to some extent"
"Noise, and the music that comes from an engagement with it, tests commonplace notions of hearing and listening.." [or once did!]

Noise / Music A History - Paul Hegarty.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by melkobukva » Thu May 17, 2018 6:26 am

jliat wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:43 am
Power Noise "Also known as: Rhythmic Noise, Distorted Beat Music" is not Noise, by which we mean Harsh Noise and HNW.
Who are the "we", you and Paul Hegarty?

Image

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Thu May 17, 2018 8:06 am

melkobukva wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:26 am
jliat wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:43 am
Power Noise "Also known as: Rhythmic Noise, Distorted Beat Music" is not Noise, by which we mean Harsh Noise and HNW.
Who are the "we", you and Paul Hegarty?
'We' is a general consensus, and numerous other writers who think that the genre of noise is not a case of anything you like.
And though its possible and has been shown to trace origins back to futurism and through Cage, industrial, and Metal Machine, the term was first used to identify the particular moves in Japan and the USA in the 1980s. That is the use of noise in and as itself. Cannons appear in the 1812, A Thunderstorm in Beethoven's 6th.... John and Yoko's work in the 70s was 'noisy' … but it wasn't until the 80s that the abstract genre of noise as far as i'm aware was generally introduced as a name for a genre. The subsequent tracing back of its history not withstanding, its interesting that both Merzbow and The Rita were influenced by fine art.

Your 'Top Artists', 'Top Albums' would be excluded in what i'm aware of as the convention (here and elsewhere) in which the genre is discussed, and written about and venues where noise is performed.
Sonic Youth was an American rock band ..merged from the experimental no wave art and music scene in New York before evolving into a more conventional rock band and becoming the most prominent of the American noise rock groups.

Throbbing Gristle became widely regarded as the pioneers of industrial music.

Fuck Buttons are an electronic music duo formed in Bristol in 2004

Einstürzende Neubauten is a German industrial band.

Critics have likened Sevdaliza's music to the likes of FKA Twigs, the trip-hop of Portishead with string arrangements recalling Siouxsie and the Banshees circa "Dazzle" and Homogenic-era Bjork.

Diamanda Galás (born August 29, 1955) is a Greek-American avant-garde dramatic soprano,]
There was a certain jumping onto the band wagon, but I don't think that's the case above, and probably the wagon has all but stopped...
“Noise can be defined as a non-periodic complex sound, in other words a sound that can be decomposed into a large number of sound waves all of different frequencies that are not multiples of one basic frequency and which do not therefore enter into harmonic relations with each other..[or] for them [ Claire Botte and Rene Chocholle in Le Bruit] ' an erratic acoustic vibration which is intermittent or statistically aleatory'... “

Noise Matters – Towards an Ontology of Noise – Greg Hainge.

Of course people are free to expand the term once applied to a certain genre identified in the 80s and being different from P.E. And Industrial... Metal of various types.. etc. But the wider the term becomes the less meaning it has, its meaning disappears in the randomness of its possible applications, in other words in NOISE.


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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by melkobukva » Thu May 17, 2018 10:00 am

jliat wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:06 am
Your 'Top Artists', 'Top Albums' would be excluded
They are not 'mine'. They are from Last.fm, an online music database with millions of users.

Let's look some other 'Top Artists' charts.

Heavy Metal: Iron Maiden, Metallica, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, Motörhead. Metallica could be replaced with something more genre-conforming, the rest is spot on.

Jazz: Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Frank Sinatra, Norah Jones, Amy Winehouse. The last one probably should not be on the list, Sinatra is questionable but can be justified, Norah Jones is, supposedly, 'one of the most popular contemporary jazz and jazz-influenced singers of our time', which seems good enough, but there have to be better alternatives. Overall, a pretty bad list.

Rap: Eminem, Kanye West, 2Pac, Beastie Boys, Jay-Z. All of them are indeed rap artists.

Classical: Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Bach, Vivaldi. 100% correct!

It seems, Last.fm genre charts are far from perfect, but usually not entirely wrong and can serve as a reasonable starting point for someone just starting to discover a new genre. So, either the noise chart is also more or less correct, or noise is a special case and requires a degree in musicology to be identified correctly. Taking into account that noise is probably the most accessible form of musicmaking, the latter would be especially remarkable if turned out to be true.

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