island too small...

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island too small...

Post by fire » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:05 am

UK people are batshit crazy
A pensioner has been arrested after stabbing to death a suspected armed burglar he confronted in his home early today.

The 78-year-old was asleep with his wife in their south London house when he heard noises and woke to challenge two men in the middle of a suspected break-in.

The homeowner was confronted by one of the intruders who was armed with a screwdriver and forced to retreat into his kitchen.

Police said there was a struggle in the kitchen and the 37-year-old suspected burglar sustained a stab wound to his chest. The man was rushed to hospital but died at 3.37am.

The homeowner suffered bruising to his arms but his condition is not thought to be serious.

He was initially arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm but re-arrested on suspicion of murder. He was in custody at a south London police today.
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Re: island too small...

Post by ¼ dead » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:04 pm

"ARMED WITH A SCREWDRIVER" is what got me.
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Re: island too small...

Post by jliat » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:54 pm

Just shows you, don't screw with an old guy in the UK.


And now the campaign "Thieves lives matter"

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Re: island too small...

Post by -V- » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:22 am

Eh?

If you stab someone to death you're gunna get arrested.

Being arrested is not the same as being charged and it's definitely not the same as going to court and being found guilty.

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Re: island too small...

Post by MKULTRA » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:04 am

[
Last edited by MKULTRA on Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: island too small...

Post by -V- » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:50 am

Castle doctrine doesn't mean you can kill someone and there be no questions asked.

UK law does give you the right to use reasonable force.

This will likely go to court.

But it's extremely unlikely that he'll get a custodial sentence if he's found guilty. I can't imagine a jury finding him guilty anyway.

And he's out on bail.

So every thing is peachy. He probably just needs a new carpet


Edit.

Just seen this on the bbc news site.

The arrest of a man over the death of an alleged burglar has reignited the debate about a person's right to defend their home. So what are those rights?

According to the government, a person in England, Wales or Northern Ireland can use "reasonable force" to protect themselves or others if a crime is taking place in their home.

This means that in the "heat of the moment", they can use an object as a weapon or stop an intruder from escaping by, for example, tackling them to the ground.

What constitutes "reasonable force" is not defined by law but if a person did what they "honestly thought was necessary at the time" then there would be "strong evidence" they acted within the law.

But a person could be prosecuted if they carried on attacking an intruder after they are no longer in danger or if they planned to trap someone rather than involve the police.

The Crown Prosecution Service advises its prosecutors to ask if force was necessary and reasonable in the circumstances.

'Over the score'

The guidance also says there is no need for a person to actually be attacked before they may defend themselves.

...

The CPS are an unpredictable bunch and short on common sense but looking at that I could well be wrong about this even going to court

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Re: island too small...

Post by Fletcher » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:01 am

-V- wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:50 am

So every thing is peachy
Apart from the dead guy.

Yeah sure he broke into someone else's house to steal stuff, and I don't condone that at all. Old guy has the right to defend himself and I would probably do the same.

But now he's dead.

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Re: island too small...

Post by -V- » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:16 am

That's a fair point.

But from what I've read the stabbing occurred during a struggle so I guess you could call it an unfortunate accident.

Regarding the dead guys family. If he comes from some criminal, chavvy family then Mr Stabbyman should probably move. Those types love a vendetta so this probably isn't over.

So yeah. Maybe not so peachy. But definitely not an example the UK being lawless or favouring the criminals or whatever it is the outraged internet is saying.

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Re: island too small...

Post by fire » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:27 am

-V- wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:16 am
That's a fair point.

But from what I've read the stabbing occurred during a struggle so I guess you could call it an unfortunate accident.
the accident was the intruder finding someone that fought back, old dude intentionally acted to save his and others lives, as is biological nature, that should never be questioned in advance, investigate first then arrest, this just stinks of trying to make society a bunch of waiting victims
-V- wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:16 am
Regarding the dead guys family. If he comes from some criminal, chavvy family then Mr Stabbyman should probably move. Those types love a vendetta so this probably isn't over.
yeah, good thing the criminals in UK dont have guns, oh wait...
-V- wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:16 am
So yeah. Maybe not so peachy. But definitely not an example the UK being lawless or favouring the criminals or whatever it is the outraged internet is saying.
no place has a 100% lawful population, thats the problem, you always risk being attacked in any society, making it unacceptable or illegal to defend yourself is lunacy
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Re: island too small...

Post by fire » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:43 am

Hospitals in Mayor Sadiq Khan’s London resemble those in a war zone, a senior surgeon working to save victims of the capital’s surging violent crime wave has said.

The shock comments made Thursday morning come after two more men were killed overnight, a couple of days after another night of violence saw a boy, 16, stabbed to death and a 17-year-old girl shot in a “drive by”.

Wednesday night’s killings, both in Hackney, East London, brought the death toll from suspected murder in the capital to 50 so far this year, pulling away from New York City, which London overtook at the weekend.

Dr. Mark Griffiths, the lead surgeon at Barts Health NHS Trust in East London, said that knife and gun wounds had moved from a “niche” part of his job to a daily chunk of his workload, and a growing number of victims were “children”.

“Some of my military colleagues have described their practice here as similar to being at [Camp] Bastion,” Dr Griffiths told the Today programme on BBC Radio 4.

“We used to look after people in their twenties. Now people are often in their mid to late teens and children in school uniforms are being admitted under our care with knife and gun wounds.”
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Re: island too small...

Post by fire » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:52 am

While Calhoun was working at NIMH in 1954, he began numerous experiments with rats and mice. During his first tests, he placed around 32 to 56 rodents in a 10 x 14-foot case in a barn in Montgomery County. He separated the space into four rooms. Every room was specifically created to support a dozen matured brown Norwegian rats. Rats could maneuver between the rooms by using the ramps. Since Calhoun provided unlimited resources, such as water, food, and also protection from predators as well as from disease and weather, the rats were said to be in "rat utopia" or "mouse paradise", another psychologist explained.

Following his earlier experiments with rats, in 1972 Calhoun would later create his "Mortality-Inhibiting Environment for Mice": a 101-inch square cage for mice with food and water replenished to support any increase in population, which took his experimental approach to its limits. In his most famous experiment in the series, "Universe 25", population peaked at 2,200 mice and thereafter exhibited a variety of abnormal, often destructive behaviors. By the 600th day, the population was on its way to extinction.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink
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Re: island too small...

Post by -V- » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:43 am

His arrest is part of the investigation so I'm not sure what you're upset about.

If the word 'arrest' was replaced by 'read his rights and offered access to free legal advice' would it still bother you as much?

The fact that he is on bail already shows they aren't exactly throwing the book at him.

I'm well aware of the rise in crime in London but have wasted enough time discussing it with people who are convinced it has Sharia Law or no go zones to not want to do it again. Funnily enough none of the people I've spoken to that are convinced it's a halal version of mad max have ever been there.

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Re: island too small...

Post by fire » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:04 am

-V- wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:43 am
His arrest is part of the investigation so I'm not sure what you're upset about.

If the word 'arrest' was replaced by 'read his rights and offered access to free legal advice' would it still bother you as much?
yes. he was/is the victim, there is no account of him knowing these guys, this was not a domestic dispute, there should be an inquiry first to establish facts, then arrest him if something is off, but until then he should have been left alone, this stigmatises the act of fighting back when attacked, if the State persecutes you but still lets you off the hook the damage has already been done, it makes some people less likely to defend themselves in an attack for fear of being jailed even temporarily, that is plain wrong and the path to a victim based Order
-V- wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:43 am
I'm well aware of the rise in crime in London but have wasted enough time discussing it with people who are convinced it has Sharia Law or no go zones to not want to do it again. Funnily enough none of the people I've spoken to that are convinced it's a halal version of mad max have ever been there.
agree, immigrants can only be tangentially blamed for just part of the problem, most of the responsibility lies with voters and their governors, i mean, wtf was the Brexit vote even held for? no action equals no representation, the people are an expendable resource
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Re: island too small...

Post by fire » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:51 am

fire wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:04 am
if the State persecutes you but still lets you off the hook the damage has already been done, it makes some people less likely to defend themselves in an attack for fear of being jailed even temporarily
Off Duty French Soldiers Arrested After Defending Woman From Robbery

5 Apr 2018

A trio of French soldiers on leave was arrested and face prosecution after they intervened to help a woman who was being robbed by a youth on the streets of Paris.

The soldiers, who were said to have been drinking at the time, came across a woman in distress as she was being robbed of her mobile phone in Paris’s Saint-Ambroise metro station early Sunday morning, Le Parisien reports.

The men, aged between 21 and 24, ran after the thief and caught up to him near the Boulevard Voltaire in the 11th arrondissement and confronted him. A source close to the investigation said the men attempted to retrieve the woman’s property but were met with resistance from the young man and a fight ensued.

In the scuffle, the teen, who was found without any identification papers or an address, had one of his teeth chipped by one of the soldiers.

Following an investigation by the Railway Network Squad (BRF), the three soldiers and the youth were arrested. “At the public prosecutor’s office, they did not agree on what to do,” a source close to the investigation said and added: “Some wanted to give them up to the military. Finally, a prosecutor’s assistant decided to prosecute the soldiers.”

While in custody, one of the soldiers is said to have remarked: “If we have to be in custody, next time, we will not intervene to defend a victim.
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Re: island too small...

Post by -V- » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:24 am

RE Your first point.

We could go round and round in circles here but I think our disagreement has more to do semantics than anything else.

So you agree that if a man is dead there should be an effort made to establish the facts.

The man with the bloody screwdriver, who called the police and told them he's the killer should be the first person you talk to right?

Isn't it fair to warn him that you're going to keep a record of what he says?

Is it fair to tell him he doesn't have to answer any questions if he doesn't want to?

Isn't it also fair to give him access to independent legal advice, of his own choosing or an on call solicitor that will be free of charge ( incidentally most of these hate coppers and are in no way in their pocket ) ?

Which of those things do you have an issue with? Because what I've just described is whats known as getting arrested.

A cosy chit chat with a cup of tea, no record, no solicitor, no making sure the right to remain silent is understood isn't a way of establishing facts. It's a way of handing the trial, if there is one, to the prosecutors.
The prosecution will just accuse the police of coaching him on how to defend himself. Looking at it this way they have helped the stabber by arresting him and following the process.

And lets be realistic.

"I just stabbed a man"

"Oh shit. Why?"

"Well he was touching my stuff"

"Oh OK then, we'll pop round some time next week"

You can't seriously think that's how it should be done.


RE your second point.

You could blame the voters, but not without understanding the political landscape of the UK. We have two parties. One cuts funding to schools, hospitals and police. The other one tends to increase funding but basically imploded after the war criminal that held it together fucked off. We aren't exactly spoiled for choice here.

And what was the Brexit vote for?

It was a gamble, an attempt to neuter UKIP who were never a serious threat to them anyway. It'll lead to less tax revenue, so less police and more bloody screwdrivers.

FWIW

The last time someone killed a burglar in the UK it went to trial and he was sent down. It happened in the country side, way before London had a brown mayor and way before Brexit so I wouldn't expect you to have heard of it ( Im kinda assuming youre from the US )

He shot the burglar. It wasn't the act of shooting him that swayed the jury. It was the fact that he shot him in the back as he was running away.

This doesn't really add anything to the point I'm making, just sayin

I sped through your story about the have-a-go heroes. I'd just refer you back to my first paragraph. The police can't just take someone's word for it when they claim to have been a hero because y'know people lie.

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