Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

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jliat
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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by jliat » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:31 am

killing raven sun wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:14 am
jliat wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:08 am
Small pox killed millions, no longer does. Fact. Same for other diseases.
so what?
jliat wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:08 am
Do you rate antibiotics at all?
wat? are you so drunk that you think vaccines are antibiotics?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Daric! of course they are not. I was wondering if you thought they (antibiotics) were OK. We all know your opinion as to vaccines.

You seem less sharp this morning...

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by killing raven sun » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:36 am

jliat wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:31 am
Daric! of course they are not. I was wondering if you thought they (antibiotics) were OK.
lol, no you are a drunk clown and slipped up thinking the two were related :lol:

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by jliat » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:29 am

killing raven sun wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:36 am
jliat wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:31 am
Daric! of course they are not. I was wondering if you thought they (antibiotics) were OK.
lol, no you are a drunk clown and slipped up thinking the two were related :lol:
Well if you have to make stuff up because you cant follow videos you post or understand other posters, rather sad.
And now your posting a thread with just snippets of my quotes...

Anyway two separate sentences. But you seem reluctant to answer the latter..

Do you know the difference - i mean you dont know the difference between a Black Hole and a Black Hole Universe, the latter you thought mainstream but its not. You cant differentiate opinion from theory. You said no theory supports the idea of Black Holes, when many do. And you failed to understand what is meant by the speed of light. Especially as a measure of distance. Too many days watching YouTube on a smart phone, and not enough sleep.

And you are quoting from a guy who with a straight face says that Paul Simon the singer songwriter is a brain washed person working towards zionist domination. He also thinks Jesus had a recipe for grain which you might check out?

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by xdugef » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:10 am

clemon wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:45 am
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:40 am
clemon wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:36 am


no... your mum :lmao:
like many, you have confused this exchange for a conversation, when in reality it is james trying to destroy any sign posts leading away from his ignorance, his sand castle looks pretty bad at this point, he has no choice but rebuild! rebuild! rebuild!
ha.

on holiday i used to build racecourses for beach balls...
And now we're not I wish you would tell me why!

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by xdugef » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:18 am

clemon wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:58 am
if harm is a fact then we don't know.

at least assuming that the less harmful result is not a harm, else the operation trivially causes harm, along with almost any turn of events such as eating a pizza
My soul is spiraling in frozen fractals all around And one thought crystallizes like an icy blast.

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by RasTheDestroyer » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:32 pm

jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:07 am
A surgeon performs an operation amputating a patient's leg as he has gangrene. Thus it can be argued not causing harm, though afterwards the patient is disabled and requires a prosthetic leg.

Later it's found the medical team made a mistake, the leg was not infected with a life threatening infection. So now they did cause harm. The analysis of the tissue some days after the operation which 'didn't cause harm' now alters the operation to one that did.

Further analysis much later shows that actually there was a potentially fatal infection. The operation now has not caused harm.

In the meantime the patient was not aware of the change from being not harmed to being harmed, or again being not harmed.

Another expert confirms the first path lab result. Now the patients was harmed, as long as this final result is certain. The expert says its a 70% certainty.

Was the patient then 70% harmed? And 30% not harmed.

Weeks later the patient is out walking and is bitten by a rattlesnake. Luckily on the false leg, so is not harmed.

So now did the operation harm or not harm the patient?
1. Part and parcel of gangrene
2. Now its harmful
3. Ok..now it ain't, sorta
4. Hmm, ok, man became another medical stat
5. Spontaneous

Now, you could just say what you don't know isn't gonna be there to kill you and yeah, there's truth to that but are we really going the "A worker sold pig iron to a foundry that made iron meant for a gunsmith so the worker was a murderer route"?

This isn't a Tuskeegee experiment type thing, he had gangrene regardless in 20-effing-19, idc if he did or didn't have another infection, cut that shit off.

Despite all of this, he was harmed, the doctors were incompotent and kept switching between him being fine and not being fine, everything else just happened, if dude lived around rattlesnakes he'd prolly know how to handle it..then again the motherfucker got gangrene

My final thought: He was harmed because he doesn't seem bright (danger to himself for being a dummy) and his area's medical practioners are crap regardless of the need for surgery
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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by jliat » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:37 am

I dont know if you just want to riff with the story, which is OK, but the intention was to show that sometimes medical intervention causes harm to prevent greater harm.

Given I was trying to argue with Daric this was difficult, or impossible. I could have used chemo therapy - but he doesn't believe it is effective....

Another example was the treatment of Syphilis by giving the patient Malaria.

And obviously any operation causes harm. But done to prevent a greater harm. Maybe if you are bored you can make up your own version or story to show this.

So despite most medical procedures have risks, even anaesthesia, most would want it rather than be operated on without it, as once was the case.

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by killing raven sun » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:23 am

jliat wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:37 am
I could have used chemo therapy - but he doesn't believe it is effective....
AIMS:
The debate on the funding and availability of cytotoxic drugs raises questions about the contribution of curative or adjuvant cytotoxic chemotherapy to survival in adult cancer patients.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:
We undertook a literature search for randomised clinical trials reporting a 5-year survival benefit attributable solely to cytotoxic chemotherapy in adult malignancies. The total number of newly diagnosed cancer patients for 22 major adult malignancies was determined from cancer registry data in Australia and from the Surveillance Epidemiology and End Results data in the USA for 1998. For each malignancy, the absolute number to benefit was the product of (a) the total number of persons with that malignancy; (b) the proportion or subgroup(s) of that malignancy showing a benefit; and (c) the percentage increase in 5-year survival due solely to cytotoxic chemotherapy. The overall contribution was the sum total of the absolute numbers showing a 5-year survival benefit expressed as a percentage of the total number for the 22 malignancies.

RESULTS:
The overall contribution of curative and adjuvant cytotoxic chemotherapy to 5-year survival in adults was estimated to be 2.3% in Australia and 2.1% in the USA.

CONCLUSION:
As the 5-year relative survival rate for cancer in Australia is now over 60%, it is clear that cytotoxic chemotherapy only makes a minor contribution to cancer survival. To justify the continued funding and availability of drugs used in cytotoxic chemotherapy, a rigorous evaluation of the cost-effectiveness and impact on quality of life is urgently required.

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by Sleep Of Ages » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:06 am

jliat wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:37 am
I dont know if you just want to riff with the story, which is OK, but the intention was to show that sometimes medical intervention causes harm to prevent greater harm.
That is dumb, Jdude, it was a total failure from your part.
Medical intervention doesn't causes harm to prevent greater harm sometimes, it's most of the time FFS. You have to cut people to play with their guts, you poke 'em and stuff with substances that you don't know exactly what can do in the long term or in relation to some personal aspects of the individual physiology. Haven't you watch House MD? :mrgreen:

And your example it's very shallow, as Daric the Druid already pointed out, old timer.

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by clemon » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:09 am

being a druid, daric probably feels that every medical intervention not involving LSD is a harm and against his belief system
*nobody here knows what the fuck you are talking about* adrian:
knew exactly what he was doing. done for no reason. knows who else is involved. doesn't care. won't delete anything. totally unapologetic.

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by jliat » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:14 am

Sleep Of Ages wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:06 am
jliat wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:37 am
I dont know if you just want to riff with the story, which is OK, but the intention was to show that sometimes medical intervention causes harm to prevent greater harm.
That is dumb, Jdude, it was a total failure from your part.
Medical intervention doesn't causes harm to prevent greater harm sometimes, it's most of the time FFS. You have to cut people to play with their guts, you poke 'em and stuff with substances that you don't know exactly what can do in the long term or in relation to some personal aspects of the individual physiology. Haven't you watch House MD? :mrgreen:

And your example it's very shallow, as Daric the Druid already pointed out, old timer.
You seem not to know what a 'thought expoeriment' is...

Well Daric has proved he is too stupid to understand stuff, do you want to do the same? Medical intervention doesn't only involve cutting people up, anti biotics save lives... as does the antiseptics, blood transfusions and the Heimlich manoeuvre...

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by clemon » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:15 am

the Heimlich manoeuvre...
:mad: :lol:
*nobody here knows what the fuck you are talking about* adrian:
knew exactly what he was doing. done for no reason. knows who else is involved. doesn't care. won't delete anything. totally unapologetic.

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by Sleep Of Ages » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:22 am

jliat wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:14 am
You seem not to know what a 'thought expoeriment' is...

Well Daric has proved he is too stupid to understand stuff, do you want to do the same? Medical intervention doesn't only involve cutting people up, anti biotics save lives... as does the antiseptics, blood transfusions and the Heimlich manoeuvre...
If you propose some stupid scenario, you get stupidity.
I'm not against vaccines and all that shit but almost every medical intevention is a form of attack one way or the other against the body, like antibiotics FFS, go google how they work. You are the one thinking about medicine as magic here. Or at least as math.
That's a poor thought expOeriment, you achieved nothing and convinced no one because of that, not because the peasants don't get it.

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by clemon » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:25 am

some harms are insignificant. in an ideal world we'd be made of light and eat mana sent from the gods
*nobody here knows what the fuck you are talking about* adrian:
knew exactly what he was doing. done for no reason. knows who else is involved. doesn't care. won't delete anything. totally unapologetic.

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Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by Sleep Of Ages » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:30 am

clemon wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:25 am
some harms are insignificant. in an ideal world we'd be made of light and eat mana sent from the gods
Yes, we are balancing the cost of harms all the time, Medicine is based on that.

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