Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

"Don't post anything racist/misogynistic/pornographic, loli images, or any animated GIFs and you should be fine, haha!" The Raytownian

Moderator: xome

User avatar
jliat
Posts: 3092
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:34 am
Contact:

Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by jliat » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:07 am

A surgeon performs an operation amputating a patient's leg as he has gangrene. Thus it can be argued not causing harm, though afterwards the patient is disabled and requires a prosthetic leg.

Later it's found the medical team made a mistake, the leg was not infected with a life threatening infection. So now they did cause harm. The analysis of the tissue some days after the operation which 'didn't cause harm' now alters the operation to one that did.

Further analysis much later shows that actually there was a potentially fatal infection. The operation now has not caused harm.

In the meantime the patient was not aware of the change from being not harmed to being harmed, or again being not harmed.

Another expert confirms the first path lab result. Now the patients was harmed, as long as this final result is certain. The expert says its a 70% certainty.

Was the patient then 70% harmed? And 30% not harmed.

Weeks later the patient is out walking and is bitten by a rattlesnake. Luckily on the false leg, so is not harmed.

So now did the operation harm or not harm the patient?

User avatar
jliat
Posts: 3092
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by jliat » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 am

If you think you can definitely answer this, you are NOT a philosopher.


If you are puzzled, you are... now move on...


Was the original post about the nature of 'Harm' , or a test to see if you are a philosopher?



Happy Holiday.

User avatar
clemon
Posts: 5052
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:21 am
Location: asanga

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by clemon » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:58 am

if harm is a fact then we don't know.

at least assuming that the less harmful result is not a harm, else the operation trivially causes harm, along with almost any turn of events such as eating a pizza
it's ok!

killing raven sun
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by killing raven sun » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am

jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:07 am
A surgeon performs an operation amputating a patient's leg as he has gangrene. Thus it can be argued not causing harm, though afterwards the patient is disabled and requires a prosthetic leg.
appeal to emotion, the patient is dead without intervention, so being disabled but alive may be preferred, the patient will not blame the doctor for losing his leg because the harm came from gangrene, so the fact that the patient is disabled is irrelevant
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:07 am
Later it's found the medical team made a mistake, the leg was not infected with a life threatening infection. So now they did cause harm. The analysis of the tissue some days after the operation which 'didn't cause harm' now alters the operation to one that did.
this hypothetical is beyond reality, gangrene is pretty easy to identify

regardless, no harm has been done, the doctors did what the patient wanted(address suffering) which they did, the harm, if any, came from the patient choosing bad doctors
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:07 am
Further analysis much later shows that actually there was a potentially fatal infection. The operation now has not caused harm.

In the meantime the patient was not aware of the change from being not harmed to being harmed, or again being not harmed.

Another expert confirms the first path lab result. Now the patients was harmed, as long as this final result is certain. The expert says its a 70% certainty.

Was the patient then 70% harmed? And 30% not harmed.
gibberish, this is a problem of medical malpractice, in reality the patient is harmed by lack of awareness by the doctors, not the amputation, the patient clearly had a problem with his leg, regardless of the outcome he got the attention he needed, he may even not care that the leg was fine, he wanted it fixed and cutting it off did the trick, he doesnt care what the doctors think
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:07 am
Weeks later the patient is out walking and is bitten by a rattlesnake. Luckily on the false leg, so is not harmed.

So now did the operation harm or not harm the patient?
no harm was done to the patient, his leg got "taken care of", thats all he cares about, the harm was done to the medical industry and its reputation

another epic self pwn thread, youre doing good work james :lol:

killing raven sun
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by killing raven sun » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:35 am

jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 am
If you think you can definitely answer this, you are NOT a philosopher.


If you are puzzled, you are... now move on...

killing raven sun
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by killing raven sun » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:53 am

jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 am
If you think you can definitely answer this, you are NOT a philosopher.


If you are puzzled, you are... now move on...


Was the original post about the nature of 'Harm' , or a test to see if you are a philosopher?
conclusions:
1. those with answers arent philosophers
2. philosophers are confused, just deal with it
3. jliat is definitely a philosopher

:lol:

User avatar
jliat
Posts: 3092
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by jliat » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am

killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:07 am
A surgeon performs an operation amputating a patient's leg as he has gangrene. Thus it can be argued not causing harm, though afterwards the patient is disabled and requires a prosthetic leg.
appeal to emotion, the patient is dead without intervention, so being disabled but alive may be preferred, the patient will not blame the doctor for losing his leg because the harm came from gangrene, so the fact that the patient is disabled is irrelevant
Nope. The patient has the risk of dying without amputation, and has a risk of dying from the operation. But you are saying being disabled is irrelevant, but its not, What if there was a better alternative treatment. The results are important, likely death either way. But that is not my argument- its what follows.
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:07 am
Later it's found the medical team made a mistake, the leg was not infected with a life threatening infection. So now they did cause harm. The analysis of the tissue some days after the operation which 'didn't cause harm' now alters the operation to one that did.
this hypothetical is beyond reality, gangrene is pretty easy to identify
Not from what I can see. Of course its hypothetical - "thought experiment" is a clue. But you can just substitute another issue. It is quite common for doctors to operate on suspected appendicitis only to find that is not the case.. Or the removal of a badly splintered leg to aid recovery, and mobility.
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am
regardless, no harm has been done, the doctors did what the patient wanted(address suffering) which they did, the harm, if any, came from the patient choosing bad doctors
The patient is not conscious, and in a remote place. The doctors are reasonable but not perfect. And removing a healthy limb certain does cause harm! As does removing a damaged one.
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:07 am
Further analysis much later shows that actually there was a potentially fatal infection. The operation now has not caused harm.

In the meantime the patient was not aware of the change from being not harmed to being harmed, or again being not harmed.

Another expert confirms the first path lab result. Now the patients was harmed, as long as this final result is certain. The expert says its a 70% certainty.

Was the patient then 70% harmed? And 30% not harmed.
gibberish
Sadly your typical response. But not so. Lets say the person is trapped by the leg in rising flood water which looks like he will drown. A friend who is training to be a doctor amputates, the trapped guy might be consious or not, the waters might recede before drowning him... whatever harm is done..

and there is as actual case, a guy some years back trapped in a remote forest, self amputated his arm because the night would being such cold that he couldnt survive. But he might have been rescued.

Or cases where people who are healthy but have a high risk of breast cancer have mastectomies. In which case the actuality of the operation being one of prevention is never knowable, and removing health parts of ones body is generally considered harmful.

killing raven sun
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by killing raven sun » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:37 am

jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
What if
:lol:
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am
this hypothetical is beyond reality, gangrene is pretty easy to identify
Not from what I can see.
:lol:
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
But you can just substitute another issue.
one thought experiment at a time little jamie, dont try to change your rules midway, cheater
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
It is quite common for doctors to operate on suspected appendicitis only to find that is not the case..
awesome example, did you know that the appendix is part if the immune system, and that there is never a good reason to take it out, but fake doctors do anyway
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
The patient is not conscious, and in a remote place.
dont care about your revisions to save face, stick to your original story, cheater
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
The doctors are reasonable but not perfect. And removing a healthy limb certain does cause harm! As does removing a damaged one.
how can something with zero value be damaged?
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am
gibberish
Sadly your typical response.
well yeah james, you are full of shit, you yourself believe you cant know anything
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
But not so. Lets say the person is trapped by the leg in rising flood water which looks like he will drown. A friend who is training to be a doctor amputates, the trapped guy might be consious or not, the waters might recede before drowning him... whatever harm is done..
dont care, stick to the original story
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
Or cases where people who are healthy but have a high risk of breast cancer have mastectomies. In which case the actuality of the operation being one of prevention is never knowable, and removing health parts of ones body is generally considered harmful.
yeah, these women are self harming, sad really considering the brca marker science was total bunk

User avatar
jliat
Posts: 3092
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by jliat » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:14 am

killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:37 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
But you can just substitute another issue.
one thought experiment at a time little jamie, dont try to change your rules midway, cheater
Same thought experiment, same rules.
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:37 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
It is quite common for doctors to operate on suspected appendicitis only to find that is not the case..
awesome example, did you know that the appendix is part if the immune system, and that there is never a good reason to take it out, but fake doctors do anyway
Never a good reason to take it out.
In 2015 about 11.6 million cases of appendicitis occurred which resulted in about 50,100 deaths.
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:37 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
The patient is not conscious, and in a remote place.
dont care about your revisions to save face, stick to your original story, cheater
So you fail to see the idea of a thought experiment, would rather be told a story- ~shrug~
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:37 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
The doctors are reasonable but not perfect. And removing a healthy limb certain does cause harm! As does removing a damaged one.
how can something with zero value be damaged?
how can something have zero value? I thought you claimed nothing could be zero?
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:37 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am
gibberish
Sadly your typical response.
well yeah james, you are full of shit, you yourself believe you cant know anything
"you yourself believe you cant know anything" wherever did you get that idea from?
There are problems with defining knowledge, but there are certainly some forms fairly certain.
5 is a prime for instance.
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am

dont care, stick to the original story
Pity - you cant engage in the thought experiment in that case, you might as well ask the name and phone number of the guy, and his hair colour...
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am

yeah, these women are self harming, sad really considering the brca marker science was total bunk
Again not important. If the operation prevents breast cancer which may be possible... then that harm prevents a greater harm... just as the Apollo astronaughts had appendix operations. The harm or not is not certain. Just as the harm or not in the original story.

killing raven sun
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by killing raven sun » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:38 am

jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:14 am
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:37 am
one thought experiment at a time little jamie, dont try to change your rules midway, cheater
Same thought experiment, same rules.
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:10 am
But you can just substitute another issue.
:roll:
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:14 am
Never a good reason to take it out.
In 2015 about 11.6 million cases of appendicitis occurred which resulted in about 50,100 deaths.
:lol: nice job illustrating how deadly modern "medicine" is, doesnt negate my statement, just because so called doctors cannot heal doesnt mean healing is impossible :lol:
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:14 am
So you fail to see the idea of a thought experiment, would rather be told a story- ~shrug~
so you fail. then you try to change the rules, pretty common troll move
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:14 am
Pity - you cant engage in the thought experiment in that case, you might as well ask the name and phone number of the guy, and his hair colour...
:lol: i started to engage in your exercise but you didnt like my responses, so you change the experiment half way through, ostensibly to your advantage, pretty common troll move
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:14 am
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am
yeah, these women are self harming, sad really considering the brca marker science was total bunk
Again not important. If the operation prevents breast cancer which may be possible... then that harm prevents a greater harm...
:lol: you are really stupid :lol:

so since reality is unimportant to you james, what keeps you going each day? why do you bother getting out of bed? what a pointless being you are

User avatar
jliat
Posts: 3092
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by jliat » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 am

killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:38 am

jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:14 am
Never a good reason to take it out.
In 2015 about 11.6 million cases of appendicitis occurred which resulted in about 50,100 deaths.
:lol: nice job illustrating how deadly modern "medicine" is, doesnt negate my statement, just because so called doctors cannot heal doesnt mean healing is impossible :lol:
That it might be - start another thread about healing, this one is about how causing harm, such as amputation, is considered a medical intervention. You disagree, but that is just your opinion. And amputation is far from modern.
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:38 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:14 am
So you fail to see the idea of a thought experiment, would rather be told a story- ~shrug~
so you fail. then you try to change the rules, pretty common troll move
Nope - the thought experiment depends on the same rules applied to different scenarios. The original one showing that the idea of surgery which saves a life is not harmful, when it is. So I've not failed and now you want to talk about 'healing'. But that is nothing at all to do with this thread.

Cutting through uninjured flesh and bone to remove a limb - is causing harm. There is another example you will have to ignore. Just before the introduction of anti biotics a treatment was found for syphilis, it was to give the patient Malaria, this causes a very high temperature which kills the syphilis bacterium. i.e. the idea of causing harm to prevent greater harm is a medical practice. Obviously not 'healing'.
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:38 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:14 am
Pity - you cant engage in the thought experiment in that case, you might as well ask the name and phone number of the guy, and his hair colour...
:lol: i started to engage in your exercise but you didnt like my responses, so you change the experiment half way through, ostensibly to your advantage, pretty common troll move
Nope - just brought out the point of the experiment. You drifted into ideas about the competence of the doctors etc. You got involved in the story, not its subject. So I tried to make this clear by other examples etc, which it seems I did, " ostensibly to your advantage,".
You even see this yourself, so want to talk about healing....
killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:27 am

so since reality is unimportant to you james, what keeps you going each day? why do you bother getting out of bed? what a pointless being you are
Reality* is important to me, don't know where you got the idea about me not thinking so. As for pointless being, yep, just like you. Or prove otherwise.... :lol: :lol:

*Reality is a theme in my writing on noise, its more "real" than music.... because like reality it is pointless and meaningless.

killing raven sun
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by killing raven sun » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:35 am

jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 am
this one is about how causing harm, such as amputation, is considered a medical intervention.
totally agree
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 am
You disagree, but that is just your opinion.
no, i totally agree, never said i didnt
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 am
And amputation is far from modern.
uh, ok mr history
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 am
Nope - the thought experiment depends on the same rules applied to different scenarios. The original one showing that the idea of surgery which saves a life is not harmful, when it is.
wrong.
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 am
Cutting through uninjured flesh and bone to remove a limb - is causing harm.
yep, thats why you dont cut off good limbs

you are no philosopher :roll:
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 am
There is another example you will have to ignore. Just before the introduction of anti biotics a treatment was found for syphilis, it was to give the patient Malaria, this causes a very high temperature which kills the syphilis bacterium. i.e. the idea of causing harm to prevent greater harm is a medical practice. Obviously not 'healing'.
:lol: because idiots do something it must be the only way, damn you are stupid, i mean seriously james, are you proud of your forced ignorance?
jliat wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 am
*Reality is a theme in my writing on noise, its more "real" than music.... because like reality it is pointless and meaningless.
such a dullard, just turn out the lights already

User avatar
clemon
Posts: 5052
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:21 am
Location: asanga

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by clemon » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:36 am

idiots... stupid... ignorance... dullard
no... your mum :lmao:
it's ok!

killing raven sun
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by killing raven sun » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:40 am

clemon wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:36 am
idiots... stupid... ignorance... dullard
no... your mum :lmao:
like many, you have confused this exchange for a conversation, when in reality it is james trying to destroy any sign posts leading away from his ignorance, his sand castle looks pretty bad at this point, he has no choice but rebuild! rebuild! rebuild!

User avatar
clemon
Posts: 5052
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:21 am
Location: asanga

Re: Harm- a thought experiment. (please ignore) Merzbow...sales pitch...

Post by clemon » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:45 am

killing raven sun wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:40 am
clemon wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:36 am
idiots... stupid... ignorance... dullard
no... your mum :lmao:
like many, you have confused this exchange for a conversation, when in reality it is james trying to destroy any sign posts leading away from his ignorance, his sand castle looks pretty bad at this point, he has no choice but rebuild! rebuild! rebuild!
ha.

on holiday i used to build racecourses for beach balls...
it's ok!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests