Did Jesus Exist?

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Did Jesus Exist?

Yes
1
14%
No
6
86%
Maybe
0
No votes
Yes, but not like the Bible portrays him
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 7

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amishrobots
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Did Jesus Exist?

Post by amishrobots » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:29 pm

Seems a rather convincing argument against:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm


this next one does not seem a particularly convincing argument, but maybe I just need to read the book, and maybe I'm too lazy to find one better:
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/14946237 ... s-his-case

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Laura91
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by Laura91 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:23 pm


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jliat
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by jliat » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:04 am

I don't know how serious you are about your question and the article you posted was typical of a poor academic analysis. First off you have to realize that there is no contemporary written evidence for much of the ancient world. We have no texts written by Plato or Aristotle or any of the numerous other writers, only copies, many dating to medieval times a thousand years latter. For instance Socrates never wrote a word.. is only known via Plato.... Events like the wars between the Greeks and Persians have far less evidence. Also back in the early 20th C many scholars thought an actual person of Jesus unlikely. However evidence now suggests that there was. There are written (non Christian) reports of riots within the Jewish community in Rome for instance. The only evidence for Pontius Pilate was the NT until a mile post with his name on it was discovered. The oldest know fragment of the NT is from St John, dated around 100AD. The authors and the Synoptic problem (Matthew Mark Luke are like copies) is complex. It's clear that an aural tradition was in existence prior to writing these. No original copies of St Paul's letters survive... but there is no good reason to doubt their origin. But the gospel narratives were obviously not reports as we would now know them. And bits are”borrowed” from the O.T.-i.e. The Magnificat. As for the miracles, it was then a given that holy men (who were common back then) had to produce them. In fact in the NT they are rather few and used to make a point. By careful analysis of the texts the later additions can be filtered and the “original” texts made clear. (the form, grammar, use of certain words) Several themes mark out these texts. Firstly Women and Children appear as significant, but back then they were generally considered chattels, property with no rights, ritually unclean.... Secondly the teaching runs counter to the Jewish outlook. Turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, a Roman soldier could force any non Roman to carry his pack for a mile, going the extra – carry it for two! Finally, though there is much else, texts like The Sermon On The Mount stand as significant new and revolutionary ideas. So an unbiased view would be that the evidence for a Jesus who had these ideas was likely. Of course that he rose from the dead and was the son of God is not the same thing at all.

So if you deny an actual person called 'Jesus' on academic grounds, you should deny also much of Greek writing and the supposed authors, as well a Buddha et al. The anti “Christian” ideas in the US is not surprising given the crazy fundamentalists you have. But they are far from following the pacifist Jesus who had no property.. and forgave crooks, terrorists and sexual perverts...

So one last example. The woman taken in adultery. Punishment, stoning to death. (now this applies to any others deviating from the norm) The Pharisees who were out to get Jesus presented her saying that the law demands stoning. The law was from God so Jesus in going against it placed himself higher, and would therefore commit blasphemy, again punishable by death. His answer to them “He who is without sin should cast the first stone” reverses the ploy. He tells the woman to go, and then the phrase “and sin no more” - given analysis was added much latter.

TLDR!

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fire
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by fire » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:59 am

'jesus' never existed

the character is an amalgam of religious stories and myths going back to the golden age

the essenes have the most complete story of the historical figure that is mistaken for 'jesus'

the whole of history, religion in particular, has been beaten into cage bars

on any subject, the truth can only be found in bits and pieces in the furthest corners

it will not set you free, ignorance is a cage, truth is a chain
The sheep have their messiah, I am here for the wolves.

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jliat
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by jliat » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:00 am

fire wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:59 am


it will not set you free, ignorance is a cage, truth is a chain
Is that true! :roll:

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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by xdugef » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:57 pm

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fire
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by fire » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:34 pm

lol, even black jesus looks kinda white

see here, the whole idea of a supernatural messiah is bonkers on its face, but then the whole narrative is incredible

why would all powerful son of god allow himself to be persecuted?

why doesnt he kill them, or better yet, cast out their demons that keep them from seeing Him?

and then he allows himself to be crossed, what a tool move that is, pretty weak messiah

and then he is resurrected, but looks different, and just wanders off never to be heard from again

what a dick
The sheep have their messiah, I am here for the wolves.

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Bonehole
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by Bonehole » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:24 pm

I think a more important question is 'Did Jesus Brexit?'

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jliat
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by jliat » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:11 am

fire wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:34 pm

see here, the whole idea of a supernatural messiah is bonkers on its face, but then the whole narrative is incredible

why would all powerful son of god allow himself to be persecuted?
Atonement. The theology is fairly sound- Greek. Because man has free choice even before the Creation God knew he would (man)
fall. The idea is one of redemption, i.e. a payment to redeem something sold. What the fall sells is the divine creation, so the cost of redemption is very high, one that only God can pay. And God is both just, and loving, so pays with his only son. That's the theology.
Or is the idea of incarnation bonkers. There are again plenty of reasonable accounts theologically. Theologians made the whole narrative very credible.

There are many examples of this. The story of Job in the OT in particular. These are discussed by Job's friends, as to why God should punish an innocent man. However the story ends with God basically saying - you are all fucking idiots and haven't a clue, so shut the fuck up. Kind of anti philosophy. Remember in Job Satan is palls with God, another of his creation.
fire wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:34 pm
why doesnt he kill them, or better yet, cast out their demons that keep them from seeing Him?

and then he allows himself to be crossed, what a tool move that is, pretty weak messiah

and then he is resurrected, but looks different, and just wanders off never to be heard from again

what a dick
No he doesnt wander off in the biblical story, he ascends into heaven, then sends down the holy spirit (which is also God - i.e. part of the Trinity) to effect a new earth. The real question / problem is this seems longer than expected, as Jesus does say that many would in his time live to see it. Hasnt happened and waiting 2,000 years its looking suspicious.... :roll:

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fire
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by fire » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:57 am

jliat wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:11 am
fire wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:34 pm

see here, the whole idea of a supernatural messiah is bonkers on its face, but then the whole narrative is incredible

why would all powerful son of god allow himself to be persecuted?
Atonement... Theologians made the whole narrative very credible.
wrong. god demands obedience, if you disobey the punishment is death, the idea of atonement was fabricated by priests to appeal to sinners who otherwise feel doomed, it is a human re action to the idea that there is no freedom, only gods law, thereby allowing one to break the law while retaining a path back to divinity
jliat wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:11 am
There are many examples of this. The story of Job in the OT in particular. These are discussed by Job's friends, as to why God should punish an innocent man. However the story ends with God basically saying - you are all fucking idiots and haven't a clue, so shut the fuck up. Kind of anti philosophy. Remember in Job Satan is palls with God, another of his creation.
this always makes me lol, the concept that god could somehow be deficient, unable to communicate his message properly, the anthropomorphic god that hates and tortures, this is a god that didnt need inventing

if god is love, how can it be party to suffering? if god causes suffering is it the god of love?
jliat wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:11 am
fire wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:34 pm
why doesnt he kill them, or better yet, cast out their demons that keep them from seeing Him?

and then he allows himself to be crossed, what a tool move that is, pretty weak messiah

and then he is resurrected, but looks different, and just wanders off never to be heard from again

what a dick
No he doesnt wander off in the biblical story, he ascends into heaven, then sends down the holy spirit (which is also God - i.e. part of the Trinity) to effect a new earth. The real question / problem is this seems longer than expected, as Jesus does say that many would in his time live to see it. Hasnt happened and waiting 2,000 years its looking suspicious.... :roll:
again, wrong. jesus does indeed wander off, if you want to think "he went to heaven" then thats nice for you, it helps you sleep maybe, but in reality he abandoned his disciples and humanity and allowed his image and name be used by child molestors and murderers, that is the truth


speaking of the electric universe and how everything is electric, this passage in job describes the electric earth...
Job 2:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
and reincarnation


want to get rid of karma? ask me how!
The sheep have their messiah, I am here for the wolves.

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jliat
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by jliat » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:41 am

fire wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:57 am

wrong. god demands obedience, if you disobey the punishment is death, the idea of atonement was fabricated by priests to appeal to sinners who otherwise feel doomed, it is a human re action to the idea that there is no freedom, only gods law, thereby allowing one to break the law while retaining a path back to divinity
Might be true of the "god" in your head but that isn't the God in the NT which is a trinity.
John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
fire wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:57 am
this always makes me lol, the concept that god could somehow be deficient, unable to communicate his message properly, the anthropomorphic god that hates and tortures, this is a god that didnt need inventing

if god is love, how can it be party to suffering? if god causes suffering is it the god of love?
You are precisely reiterating the friends of Job.... Moreover the God of the NT is not a concept - or a father its Daddy. You're right about priests miss translating the Aramaic as Father , it should be 'Daddy'.

fire wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:34 pm

again, wrong. jesus does indeed wander off, if you want to think "he went to heaven" then thats nice for you, it helps you sleep maybe, but in reality he abandoned his disciples and humanity and allowed his image and name be used by child molestors and murderers, that is the truth
I don't think he went to heaven, i'm describing the NT account.

Mark 16:19
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

To make sure you can follow- i'm not saying this NT narrative is one I believe, i'm just saying what the narrative is. Just as a narrative says Hercules cleaned the stables of King Augeas... that is the story, my saying that doesn't mean I believe in Hercules or the stable cleaning event in the story. You seem a little lost here.

As for child molesters and murderers those were precisely his target audience. The parable of the good Samaritan should these days be just that - the parable of the good child molester...
fire wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:34 pm
want to get rid of karma? ask me how!
i dont believe in karma, and wouldnt ask advice from someone as confused as you who conflates reporting a story or myth with actually thinking it true...

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fire
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by fire » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:06 am

jliat wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:41 am
.. that is the story, my saying that doesn't mean I believe in Hercules or the stable cleaning event in the story. You seem a little lost here.
ruh? am i? you dont believe the story but somehow its proof i am wrong

you are the dumbest person i have ever conversed with

please enlighten me on how things really are, get out them books and spew someone elses egotistical lies about reality, lets hear it
The sheep have their messiah, I am here for the wolves.

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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by xdugef » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:46 am

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jliat
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by jliat » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:41 am

fire wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:06 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:41 am
.. that is the story, my saying that doesn't mean I believe in Hercules or the stable cleaning event in the story. You seem a little lost here.
ruh? am i? you dont believe the story but somehow its proof i am wrong

you are the dumbest person i have ever conversed with

please enlighten me on how things really are, get out them books and spew someone elses egotistical lies about reality, lets hear it
You really dont get it do you. This thread was about Jesus, now this Jesus is known to us via the NT. That is the Jesus I was talking about, the one whose actions are described in the NT. True or not.

You made claims about Jesus which contradicts these written texts. So your just making stuff up. Which fine, but is misleading. Like i might say Donald Trump is the greatest Democratic president ever. And when corrected argue that those doing so are relying on books and TV and not their own delusions.

So the proof you are wrong is that the biblical story has Jesus ascending into heaven, your version is just that.
So if you say 'Hercules didnt clean the stables' you are wrong. Just as if you say Rudolf didnt have a red nose, or unicorns do not have horns. You are wrong. They do.

Existence is another matter. You really need to do some basic philosophy. :wink:

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jliat
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Re: Did Jesus Exist?

Post by jliat » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:50 am

jliat wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:41 am
fire wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:06 am
jliat wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:41 am
.. that is the story, my saying that doesn't mean I believe in Hercules or the stable cleaning event in the story. You seem a little lost here.
ruh? am i? you dont believe the story but somehow its proof i am wrong

you are the dumbest person i have ever conversed with

please enlighten me on how things really are, get out them books and spew someone elses egotistical lies about reality, lets hear it
You really dont get it do you. This thread was about Jesus, now this Jesus is known to us via the NT. That is the Jesus I was talking about, the one whose actions are described in the NT. True or not.

You made claims about Jesus which contradicts these written texts. So your just making stuff up. Which fine, but is misleading. Like i might say Donald Trump is the greatest Democratic president ever. And when corrected argue that those doing so are relying on books and TV and not their own delusions.

So the proof you are wrong is that the biblical story has Jesus ascending into heaven, your version is just your own fiction, I could say he got a job selling used camels, D.H.Lawrence wrote another version...

So what actually happened is not the point, the point is what the story says, not what you dream up. Someone like Robin Hood was a figure of which there are stories, they may well be based in truth. But the Mythological/Historical figure of Robin Hood and his deeds is given to us, we don't just make stuff up. So when asked about Robin Hood one describes the myth/legend, not just what one wishes..
So the mythological figure of Jesus in the NT ascended up to Heaven. He didn't wander around.

So if you say 'Hercules didnt clean the stables' you are wrong. Just as if you say Rudolf didnt have a red nose, or unicorns do not have horns. You are wrong. They do.

Existence is another matter. You really need to do some basic philosophy. :wink:

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