tools of objective investigation

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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by fire » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 am

posting quotes of text that you dont understand isnt helping you, especially when you posit that mathematical modeling is reality

you completely ignore all evidence that disagrees with you, such as the quote from nasa

its obvious you just want to argue, i do this as an exercise to strengthen my understanding of reality

you are not challenging anything i know, so i guess we are done for now

you will now attack me for not replying exactly how you want and maybe even quote someone you think is smarter than you to back you up, so tedious

talk about lack of originality
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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by xdugef » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:48 pm

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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by jliat » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am

fire wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 am
posting quotes of text that you dont understand isnt helping you, especially when you posit that mathematical modeling is reality
You either wilfully or not fail to read what I write. Then attack a strawman. And refer to "texts" etc but never say which. A MODEL IS NEVER REALITY. That should be simple enough. Just as a MAP is not reality. Any sensible person would know that, we don't find in the real world mathematical objects. I said science - notably physics uses mathematics to make models, and sees how useful they are in understanding and predicating reality.

1. The models are never perfect, they get very close.

2. I do not do that or think it - SCIENCE of any flavour - for me - IT IS NOT the best way of dealing with reality.

The EU guys including you just think your models are better - or worse think they are perfect. And as for texts one doesn't understand - classic - you don't understand the diagonal argument, if you did your theory re infinity would collapse.

Now can you please slowly re-read this so you reply to what i'm saying and not your Barbie doll. :wall:
fire wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 am
you completely ignore all evidence that disagrees with you, such as the quote from nasa
But I didn't. Its a brilliant quote as it smacks you and the EU people in the face. And you seem not to get it. You and EU argue big science is wrong and they hide the truth of this........ evidence a finding from Big Science. Can you not see the massive contradiction.

BUT - I actually don't care that much if the sun is powered by thermonuclear activity or electricity or by elves or is in fact the arsehole of Elvis Presley. GOT THIS.

Again you might want to re read.

Why don't I care that much.

Well its something called philosophy. And the story goes like this,

Reality could be a bad dream - (Descartes.)

Reality is that you are just a brain in a vat, i'm just some signals being sent to your brain.

The universe came into being as is 10 minutes ago.

And a modern version. This is just a computer simulation. (this has more to it than the others as it argue advanced civilizations will make computer simulations, if so there will be more simulated universes than 'real' ones. ergo odds are we or you are simulations.)

But (I doubt you've followed this) the important point is NO FUCKING SCIENTIST or ELECTRIC UNIVERSE CAN REFUTE THESE IDEAS!

Now take a break and let this percolate a little. Have a coffee, go for a walk...
....

OK. Feeling better or worse? So what the FUCK can we do. There are various answers from suicide to being a Marxist or catholic...

Me - I do what others might call art.
fire wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 am
its obvious you just want to argue, i do this as an exercise to strengthen my understanding of reality
Yes I enjoy argument. But it has its limits. As for your understanding - fine - but in your case you increase your ignorance - you have to ignore stuff like mathematics - set theory different infinities, much of philosophy including those of China and India through to Existentialism and post-modernism. Only by being amazingly ignorant can you strengthen yourself. Which as we are being personal is rather sad. And its not working, the spew of invectives is evidence, you are one unhappy bunny.
fire wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 am
you are not challenging anything i know, so i guess we are done for now
I'm not challenging.. I merely offer an alternative. If EU theory gets you through the night - FINE. You post your views I post mine.
But there is no need to attack a strawman or be so abusive.
fire wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 am
you will now attack me for not replying exactly how you want and maybe even quote someone you think is smarter than you to back you up, so tedious
You quoted NASA to back you up.... but your post this time was different - no swearing... and no actually all i'm saying is have your ideas, but see others have different ones. And calling them CUNTS and FULL of SHIT and old men who should take their meds is kind of ... well fascist - or like the KKK...
fire wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 am
talk about lack of originality
Sure this has been about EU and Big science. I dont think any individual can be original in these things - ergo I do what others might call art.

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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by fire » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am

jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
1. The models are never perfect, they get very close.
no they dont, they are always discovered to be seriously lacking, you will not find any model that even comes close to reality, to think all of mathematics is understood to the point of being able to simulate reality would be laughable if i didnt know you are serious
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
The EU guys including you just think your models are better - or worse think they are perfect.
this why you get called names and get your arguements ignored, because you make snarky personal attacks instead of using facts, such as the eu guys eschew modeling and instead focus on experiments and observable data, one of the glaring differences they exhibit, anyone who has even cursory knowledge of the eu community knows this basic fact
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
you don't understand the diagonal argument, if you did your theory re infinity would collapse.
you dont understand any angle of the infinity arguement, there
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
But I didn't. Its a brilliant quote as it smacks you and the EU people in the face. And you seem not to get it. You and EU argue big science is wrong and they hide the truth of this........ evidence a finding from Big Science. Can you not see the massive contradiction.
you are now trying to impeach the evidence, wow, now i know you are full of shit, dont like the message? kill the messenger! youre right, being ignorant is easier for you
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
BUT - I actually don't care that much if the sun is powered by thermonuclear activity or electricity or by elves or is in fact the arsehole of Elvis Presley. GOT THIS[/b].

Again you might want to re read.
thats why you follow me around like a rabid dog posting crap you dont understand in an attempt to show me the fool, riiiiight
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
Why don't I care that much.
because youre a dumbfuck, too stupid to live your own life, so you try and deny others theirs
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
Well its something called philosophy. And the story goes like this,

Reality could be a bad dream - (Descartes.)

Reality is that you are just a brain in a vat, i'm just some signals being sent to your brain.

The universe came into being as is 10 minutes ago.

And a modern version. This is just a computer simulation. (this has more to it than the others as it argue advanced civilizations will make computer simulations, if so there will be more simulated universes than 'real' ones. ergo odds are we or you are simulations.)
yep, an idiot can think all kinds of things, i once knew a guy who thought everyone at the bus stop wanted to watch him masturbate
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
But (I doubt you've followed this) the important point is NO FUCKING SCIENTIST or ELECTRIC UNIVERSE CAN REFUTE THESE IDEAS!
youre right, a loon can think anything they want, some of us are focused on knowing

the fact that you dont think any thing can be known speaks volumes to your mindset
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
OK. Feeling better or worse? So what the FUCK can we do. There are various answers from suicide to being a Marxist or catholic...

Me - I do what others might call art.
yep, the fool, convinced of his damnation, seeks not salvation, but rather builds a smaller, more familiar cage for himself
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
fire wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 am
its obvious you just want to argue, i do this as an exercise to strengthen my understanding of reality
Yes I enjoy argument. But it has its limits. As for your understanding - fine - but in your case you increase your ignorance - you have to ignore stuff like mathematics - set theory different infinities, much of philosophy including those of China and India through to Existentialism and post-modernism. Only by being amazingly ignorant can you strengthen yourself. Which as we are being personal is rather sad. And its not working, the spew of invectives is evidence, you are one unhappy bunny.
you have already declared yourself to be unable to understand these concepts, you are just an "artist", one who knows no particular truths and doesnt care if they exist, your opinion is worthless, by your own standard
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
fire wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 am
you will now attack me for not replying exactly how you want and maybe even quote someone you think is smarter than you to back you up, so tedious
You quoted NASA to back you up....
no, i quoted them because you seem to be enamored with Scientists that dont have a clue how to explain their experiments
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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by jliat » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:37 am

fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
1. The models are never perfect, they get very close.
no they dont, they are always discovered to be seriously lacking, you will not find any model that even comes close to reality, to think all of mathematics is understood to the point of being able to simulate reality would be laughable if i didnt know you are serious
Oh please! Newton's model works so well its used to create most of the technology we use. Explains the planetary orbits very accurately but not perfectly... etc Even the EU guys think so - talk to them they might get through to you - and they use Maxwell's equations in their work - as they too work so well. And yes of course there is something always lacking. Science generalizes, nature is always particular. Like a map - its a generalization - a 1 to 1 map would be useless.

"to think all of mathematics is understood to the point of being able to simulate reality would be laughable if i didn't know you are serious"

But I never said that you idiot - fucking read for once. Only a tiny fraction of maths is of any use to physics. And I've told you over and again all of mathematics cant be understood - proven so by Godel. Dam you just argue with fictions in your head.
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
The EU guys including you just think your models are better - or worse think they are perfect.
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
this why you get called names and get your arguements ignored, because you make snarky personal attacks instead of using facts, such as the eu guys eschew modeling and instead focus on experiments and observable data, one of the glaring differences they exhibit, anyone who has even cursory knowledge of the eu community knows this basic fact
The only people who call me names are you and Luke... my arguments do not get ignored they are cited, been published and are even taught in music theory. I do not make snarky remarks about the EU guys. I said I think free thinking is good. And they do make models, what do you think the Saphire guys have built, an actual universe or a model. As for actual observable data they get the "real" data from the Big science they dispute!
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
you don't understand the diagonal argument, if you did your theory re infinity would collapse.
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
you dont understand any angle of the infinity arguement, there
Yep I do that it proves the set of irrational is infinitely bigger than the set of rationals. Even your EU friends would see that..
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
But I didn't. Its a brilliant quote as it smacks you and the EU people in the face. And you seem not to get it. You and EU argue big science is wrong and they hide the truth of this........ evidence a finding from Big Science. Can you not see the massive contradiction.
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
you are now trying to impeach the evidence, wow, now i know you are full of shit, dont like the message? kill the messenger! youre right, being ignorant is easier for you
But I agree with the evidence from NASA. I agree there are unknowns and errors in proper science. I keep saying this. You seem to be arguing with some fictional character, a boggy man in your head. I love the message - here kiss kiss to Nasa... kiss kiss to the black matter problem... so if this person who wants to impeach the evidence is not me it must be of your making in your head - so saying its full of shit is being hard on yourself.
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 am
BUT - I actually don't care that much if the sun is powered by thermonuclear activity or electricity or by elves or is in fact the arsehole of Elvis Presley. GOT THIS[/b].
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
thats why you follow me around like a rabid dog posting crap you dont understand in an attempt to show me the fool, riiiiight
No - I guess most people here think you are a fool, and think I am also for attempting to discuss something with you.
And if you are right maybe I bit you sometime... hence all your venom. But if you like i'll stop posting if its upsetting you...
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
because youre a dumbfuck, too stupid to live your own life, so you try and deny others theirs
NO I keep saying enjoy your ideas..
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
yep, an idiot can think all kinds of things, i once knew a guy who thought everyone at the bus stop wanted to watch him masturbate
So modern science including Newton, Descartes - mathematician as well as philosopher and much of mathematics all these were and are in your head idiots.
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
the fact that you dont think any thing can be known speaks volumes to your mindset
But I didn't say that. Any philosophy 101... "Nothing can be known!" .... durrrr "And that's a fact - you know this!?!"
Science's knowledge is provisional, certain philosophers want absolute knowledge...
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
you have already declared yourself to be unable to understand these concepts, you are just an "artist", one who knows no particular truths and doesnt care if they exist, your opinion is worthless, by your own standard
What concepts - that the Sun works by the impact of electrons from outer space acting on the protons, so its power and heat is electrical..
I think I understand that but correct me if i'm wrong. Do I think it is a good explanation - no.
Did I say I was an artist. I don't think so
Did I say I know no particular truths - no (the truth of the irrational set is actually absolute for its a priori.)
Do I care if they exist. Yes, confusing absolute truth with provisional ones leads to Fascism.
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 am
no, i quoted them because you seem to be enamored with Scientists that dont have a clue how to explain their experiments
Ah but you seemed wrong. And i have said so many times. There are lots of creation stories - some myths - but myths can often hold more truth than a set of numbers or equations. You think everything is electric. I think myths like this hold truths not capturable in numbers or voltages... its why I studied comparative religion...

1. At that time the heaven above had not yet announced,
2. or the earth beneath recorded, a name;
3. the unopened 1 deep was their generator,
4. Mummu-Tiamat (the chaos of the sea) was the mother of them all.
5. Their waters were embosomed as one, 2 and
6. the corn-field 3 was unharvested, the pasture was un-grown.
7. At that time the gods had not appeared, any of them;
8. by no name were they recorded, no destiny (had they fixed)
9. Then the (great) gods were created,

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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by fire » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:52 am

my arguments do not get ignored they are cited, been published and are even taught in music theory
omg, an argument from authority, your own, now i see why you are so unstable, not able to objectively observe your positiion

the fact that you trumpet about being a pillar in the music sciences but yet make noise is quite a contradiction, you form a tight knot, so much tension

the aggression you show to my "nonsensical" posts is astonishing on the surface, but then you admonish me for my supposed transgressions while calling me idiot and "illiterate"

seems like it might be you who is the unhappier of the two of us

keep replying and trolling me if you need to, i dont reply if i dont want
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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by jliat » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:13 am

fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:52 am
my arguments do not get ignored they are cited, been published and are even taught in music theory
omg, an argument from authority,
No its not an argument from authority you silly boy, it is an argument from fact, fact i'm not ignored - you said my ideas were.
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:52 am
i see why you are so unstable, not able to objectively observe your positiion
Hmmmm i'm not the one who thinks they are electric - are you AC or DC?
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:52 am
the fact that you trumpet about being a pillar in the music sciences
Hardly a pillar - not even a brick - but not ignored - can you see the difference - maybe not.
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:52 am
but yet make noise is quite a contradiction, you form a tight knot, so much tension
Well no - the genre of noise is part of music. Its history is taught in music colleges etc. As for making noise - I don't anymore.
As you can see not many people left, most interested in gear rather than the making of noise as an artform. I think even more recent stuff from the likes of Merzbow have moved away.
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:52 am

the aggression you show to my "nonsensical" posts is astonishing on the surface, but then you admonish me for my supposed transgressions while calling me idiot and "illiterate"

seems like it might be you who is the unhappier of the two of us

keep replying and trolling me if you need to, i dont reply if i dont want
OK i'll go along with that, i'm fairly happy most days.

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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by fire » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:21 am

Hmmmm i'm not the one who thinks they are electric - are you AC or DC?
ELECTROMAGNETIC FIELDS AND THE HEART: BASIC SCIENCE AND CLINICAL USE

Heart disease is the number one cause of mortality in the United States and Canada. The heart is a very electrically dynamic organ. Heart disease includes many causes. These range from vascular disease, electrical conduction defects, muscle problems, valvular effects, congenital defects, infectious problems, trauma and pericardial problems, all as the direct or primary cause of the cardiac disease. Other non-direct problems can also affect the heart secondary to other systemic issues, including, but not limited to, hypertension, kidney disease, lung disease, autoimmune diseases, toxicities of various kinds, etc. Finding nonpharmacologic and noninvasive ways of managing heart disease in a safe, effective, nontoxic way is always a goal.

Magnetic fields have been found to significantly affect cardiac function, in addition to effects on a myriad of other body systems and problems. Not all magnetic fields are the same. Different types of magnetic fields may have different effects on the heart. Treatment of secondary causes can be just as important as the primary management of the heart itself.

The purpose of this paper is to explore the interaction of electromagnetic fields (EMFs) and the heart. We will review the basic science of EMFs and tissue, the heart as an electromagnetic organ and the geomagnetic and occupational influences that may affect it. This will serve to emphasize how readily cardiac tissue may be affected by EMFs. Animal studies often serve as a basis for understanding how human functioning may be affected by any therapy, before human treatment is tried. Finally, we will end with evidence of human benefits
https://www.drpawluk.com/blog/electroma ... the-heart/
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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by jliat » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:54 am

You said there was only electricity and not electromagnetism, now you cite an article which contradicts this. Try again.

The article also talks of "electrical conduction defects, muscle problems, valvular effects, congenital defects, infectious problems.."

But only the first is electrical - you claim everything is electrical- again another contradiction. FAIL

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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by fire » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:04 am

jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:54 am
You said there was only electricity and not electromagnetism, now you cite an article which contradicts this. Try again.

The article also talks of "electrical conduction defects, muscle problems, valvular effects, congenital defects, infectious problems.."

But only the first is electrical - you claim everything is electrical- again another contradiction. FAIL
electromagnetism = naming convention, not some universal truth, not worth getting stuck on, terms arent the forces behind them

you have presented no rebuttal, you are being obtuse to continue the arguement, FAIL
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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by fire » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:16 am

xdugef wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:48 pm
pentagon.jpg
stay back, philosophy being made









next day i have free and the weather isnt shit i am taking my new gun out to make a shooting vid, :D
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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by jliat » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:17 am

fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:04 am
you have presented no rebuttal, you are being obtuse to continue the arguement, FAIL
No need you contadicted yourself. That electomagnism exists is not in dispute, that everything is electrical is. You cited an article in which electomagnism was one of many different things. Clear contradiction.

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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by fire » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:21 am

jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:17 am
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:04 am
you have presented no rebuttal, you are being obtuse to continue the arguement, FAIL
No need you contadicted yourself. That electomagnism exists is not in dispute, that everything is electrical is. You cited an article in which electomagnism was one of many different things. Clear contradiction.
like i said, describe one nonelectrical thing, then we can continue

neutrinos are measured electrically

thoughts are measured electrically

just one thing not electric, go!
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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by jliat » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:36 am

fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:21 am
jliat wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:17 am
fire wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:04 am
you have presented no rebuttal, you are being obtuse to continue the arguement, FAIL
No need you contadicted yourself. That electomagnism exists is not in dispute, that everything is electrical is. You cited an article in which electomagnism was one of many different things. Clear contradiction.
like i said, describe one nonelectrical thing, then we can continue

neutrinos are measured electrically

thoughts are measured electrically

just one thing not electric, go!

We've been here before - you have a circular argument.

Anything which exists is electric, therefore anything which is not cannot exist.

But you say thoughts are measured eclectically - no - brain activity is. So can you measure electrically if you are experiencing the room you are in or dreaming it?

So my thing - "Reality" cannot be measured electrically, only things in what you suppose is real.

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Re: tools of objective investigation

Post by jliat » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:49 am

And another thing you cant measure electrically.


A battery...


Because the act of measuring will change its charge... you can only infer what it was... which is not a measure?

How about that?

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