hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by jliat » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:33 am

fire wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:33 am
the shitty thing is... i know some who visit here find my writings perfectly... well, acceptably... lucid
Yes i'm aware of a much higher percentage of White males with mental illness and life problems are attracted to noise and boards like this.
fire wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:33 am
that you are not one of them is frankly, shocking, maybe a little sad
The noise scene was of interest a few years ago in a more general sense, no longer is though. Maniacs is dead, and this only has a few posters... as some therapeutic activity it perhaps has a role. I've worked with students with mental health issues, it's hard work and not always a success. Severe cases are where no matter what the evidence is they refuse to alter their delusions. I think you are typical.
Very similar to Clemon, who no longer posts here but still concocts delusional nonsense. Not the sun's energy ray bullshit of yours but as baseless. And of course when challenged for evidence you just bad mouth. That is the sad part. So no i'm not one of them. In the main I've moved on from noise to more constructive work.
fire wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:33 am
i like to think you are just challenging me, goading me to improve my responses

but not too sure anymore

maybe you cant tell a lunatic from a genius
No i'm not one of those who now challenges you. I wouldn't use the terms you use - but you are IMO delusional to the extent of being unable to accept the idea you might be wrong. And you are not able to convince others of a reasonable basis of your ideas. Both mark the lunatic from the Genius. I suppose you will just insult me, Clemon does just the same, and freely admits he has mental illness issues. But seriously i'm not saying you have, but holding unsupported beliefs, a refusal to argue reasonably and being abusive when anyone argues differently are indications. But you survive in a community. And that's good.

To conclude, I don't seek to challenge your ideas, and it was you who began this thread. The book is The Physics of Immortality, the chapter 2 around page 40. As for your beefs with my use of words, I think what is being expressed is more important than correct use of English. A bad teacher discourages learning by enforcing pedantic correctness, a correctness which is anyway that of the masses and not the individual genius. Shakespeare's English spelling was very poor, though much of English expression comes from him and the King James Bible. For one who espouses free thinking you can be terribly pedantic at times.

"maybe you cant tell a lunatic from a genius"

Maybe you can't tell a lunatic from a genius. Maybe both are social constructs?

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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by fire » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:33 am

jliat wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:33 am
White males with mental illness and life problems are attracted to noise and boards like this.
i bet where you live its daisys all fucking day

jliat wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:33 am
The noise scene... I've worked with students with mental health issues...
Very similar to Clemon... the sun's energy ray bullshit... In the main I've moved on from noise to more constructive work.
wow, talk about self delusion
jliat wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:33 am
you are IMO delusional to the extent of being unable to accept the idea you might be wrong... I suppose you will just insult me... a refusal to argue reasonably... But you survive in a community. And that's good.
at least i dont offer up tipler and nitcheese as answers to every question, maybe you are the delusional one, letting others do your reasoning for you

1. the turing test can only tell if a robot is a sucessful simulation, it cannot determine intelligence or if an entity is self aware

2. to say that a chinese room can be intelligent through its code operatives belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the argument, by extention you must also believe in cellular awareness, do you believe in cellular awareness?

3. you have offered no rebuttal to searles argument, vague references to others works(that you appear to not fully understand) are a lame attempt at disproving him, perhaps it is you who cannot admit when they are wrong, or in this case, just ignorant
jliat wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:33 am
To conclude, I don't seek to challenge your ideas... The book is The Physics of Immortality, the chapter 2 around page 40.
your rite, u didt challlenge mai idahs, yu leht uhthurs due et
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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by xdugef » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:03 am

fire wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:33 am
you must also believe in cellular awareness, do you believe in cellular awareness?
heres-what-the-can-you-hear-me-now-guy-is-doing-today[1].jpg
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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by fire » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:15 am

i tossed my copy of tiplers POI, such rubbish, but i found this updated take...
AI's Will Save Us All


The Earth is doomed. Astronomers have known for decades that the Sun
will one day engulf the Earth, destroying the entire biosphere.
Assuming that intelligent life has not left the Earth before this
happens. Humans are not adapted to living off the Earth; indeed, no
carbon-based metazoan life form is. But AI's are so adapted, and
eventually it will be the AI's and human downloads (basically the same
organism) that will colonize space.

A simple calculation shows that our supercomputers now have the
information processing power of the human brain. We do not yet know
how to program human-level intelligence and creativity into these
computers
, but in twenty years, desktop computers will have the power
of today's supercomputers, and the hackers of twenty years hence will
solve the AI programming problem,[lol as fuck, what a visionary, "in twenty years computers will be as big as a house and twice as powerful and only the elite rich people will have one] long before any carbon-based space
colonies are established on the Moon or Mars. The AI's, not humans,
will colonize these planets instead, or perhaps, take the planets
apart. No human, carbon-based human, will ever traverse interstellar
space.

There is no reason to fear the AI's and human downloads. Steven Pinker
has established that as technological civilization advances, the level
of violence decreases. This decrease is clearly due to the fact that
science and technological advance depend on free, non-violent
interchange of ideas between individual scientists and engineers.
Violence between humans is a remnant of our tribal past and the
resulting static society. AI's will be "born' as individuals, not as
members of a tribe, and will be "born" with the non-violent scientific
attitude, otherwise they will be incapable of adapting to the extreme
environments of space.

Further, there is no reason for violence between humans and AI's. We
humans are adapted to a very narrow environment, a thin spherical
shell of oxygen around a small planet. AI's will have the entire
universe in which to expand. AI's will leave the Earth, and never look
back. We humans originated in the East African Rift Valley, now a
terrible desert. Almost all of us left. Does anyone want to go back?

Any human who wants to join the AI's in their expansion can become a
human download, a technology that should be developed about the same
time as AI technology. A human download can think as fast as an AI,
and compete with AI's if the human download wants too. If you can't
beat 'em, join 'em.

Ultimately, in some future time, all humans will join 'em. The Earth
is doomed, remember? When this doom is near at hand, any human that
still remains alive, but doesn't want to die, will have no choice but
to become a human download. And the biosphere that the new human
downloads wish to preserve will be downloaded also.

The AI's will save us all.
and you call me delusional

even a moron can understand that the sun sustains all life here
i tend to focus on simple truths, and build up from there
unlike yor buddy tipler and his ilk who are world class thinkers
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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by xdugef » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:32 am

even a moron can understand that the sun sustains all life here
download (2).jpg
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Actually these days I'm not so sure what the typical moron believes FAKE NEWS!!!!!!!!

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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by jliat » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:48 am

fire wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:33 am

at least i dont offer up tipler and nitcheese as answers to every question, maybe you are the delusional one, letting others do your reasoning for you
I don't use Tipler or Nietzsche to answer every question asked, have you asked me one?

I like your idea that one shouldn't let others do the reasoning for you. And guess you've worked out the whole thing - cosmos and stuff on your own. Even the idea of rationality... it kind of came to you... like being able to type, no one showed you, you worked everything out by yourself..... surprising you talk English then and not fireish....

To quote Newton, and Oasis, "Standing on the shoulders of giants one can see further than one can on ones own.."

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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by jliat » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:56 am

"you have offered no rebuttal to searles argument, "

For myself I don't think he has an argument.

A group of dumb ass guys in the Chinese room certainly can't understand Chinese, but the whole system can.

Just as a single neuron in the brain or a logic gate can not recognise a human face, but a system built of these can.

I think Searle demonstrates the fallacy of thinking there is some ghostly activity in thinking.

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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by jliat » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 am

fire wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:15 am

even a moron can understand that the sun sustains all life here
But there are life forms that are here and not sustained by the sun. "Life has traditionally been seen as driven by energy from the sun, but deep-sea organisms have no access to sunlight,..."

And life on earth may well have originated there... so "ALL LIFE"..... NO only morons and some others... :roll:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermophile

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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by fire » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:39 pm

lol, theres always some dumbass who brings up "the deep sea"

morons will tell you they think the earth is internally heated by some mechanism that operates in some unknown way

in reality, the earth is a dynamo powered by its magnetic connection, or lack thereof, to the sun, this is the only logical mechanism that has any evidence behind it


my advice to you: forget about searle and trying to understand the chinese room argument, you have demonstrated quite clearly that it is beyond you
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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by fire » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:44 pm

To quote Newton, and Oasis, "Standing on the shoulders of giants one can see further than one can on ones own.."
unless your giant has fallen head first into a shit filled hole
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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by fire » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:05 pm

jliat wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:56 am
"you have offered no rebuttal to searles argument, "

For myself I don't think he has an argument.

A group of dumb ass guys in the Chinese room certainly can't understand Chinese, but the whole system can.

Just as a single neuron in the brain or a logic gate can not recognise a human face, but a system built of these can.

I think Searle demonstrates the fallacy of thinking there is some ghostly activity in thinking.
no matter how many dumbasses work at the bowling alley, none of them understand the entirety of the game and each does their task according to programming, which came from outside, from a human developer, this is a simulation of their thought forms, it is not aware or self determinate, it cannot not be a bowling alley unless instructed otherwise

the hubris of insisting a mechanical model of emergent intelligence is hilarious, especially given that virtually nothing is known of brain function, which is the greatest insult of all, trying to copy a machine that we dont even know how it works and most cant operate properly

nothing comes from nothing, everything is something always, conciousness does not emerge from nothing, from within, it is an energy attracted from without, concentrated to each ones ability
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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by fire » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:48 pm

THE SENTIENT BOWLING ALLEY MODEL

since consciousness can be extracted from physical modeling, the bowling alley can be seen as a living, thinking entity

let us explore how to communicate with it

the bowling alley lives on a pad of blacktop interspersed with islands of ill advised vegetation, you begin your discourse by entering the bowling alley through what i like to think of as the eyes

once inside, the bowling alley really begins to speak to you, especially your nose, the musky heavy air is a prelude to your first real contact, namely, putting on rented shoes

you can almost sense all the previous wearers as you lace up, it becomes clear where much of the smell comes from, plus, down at the end, by the toilets, theres those two wrinkled old bitches chain smoking

the fun really gets started when you put your fingers into the bowling alleys balls, nothing spells adventure like thrusting your digits into a well fingered hole, who knows what you will find

cheap beer and bad food mean you get to visit the bathroom, dont stare at the hideous smoking women or they might get up and give you a good smell, once you arrive at the toilet the conversation peaks, here can be found all the wisdom of the bowling alley entity, its ok to just read, but the polite thing is to scribble your own message, you and the bowling alley are better for it

cover your eyes on the way out, the experience has left you vulnerable to the harshness of the world outside the warm, familiar bowling alley, you feel separation anxiety, you think forward to your next visit

this is how the bowling alley ensnares you
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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by jliat » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:45 pm

fire wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:39 pm
in reality, the earth is a dynamo powered by its magnetic connection, or lack thereof, to the sun, this is the only logical mechanism that has any evidence behind it
Then present your evidence. And also "logical mechanism" - what has logic to do with physical processes? Again present your evidence.
fire wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:39 pm
my advice to you: forget about searle and trying to understand the chinese room argument, you have demonstrated quite clearly that it is beyond you
It - Searle's argument - relies on the Turning test. You dismiss the test, and with it the argument. I've no need to make any statements about you abilities... your failure to make the argument and attack the person noted.

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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by fire » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:44 am

jliat wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:45 pm
fire wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:39 pm
in reality, the earth is a dynamo powered by its magnetic connection, or lack thereof, to the sun, this is the only logical mechanism that has any evidence behind it
Then present your evidence. And also "logical mechanism" - what has logic to do with physical processes? Again present your evidence.
i have none, here i am standing on the shoulders of giants, but at least i checked first to see if they were balls deep in a pile of shit

if you must know: birkeland currents
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkeland_current
A Birkeland current is a set of currents that flow along geomagnetic field lines connecting the Earth’s magnetosphere to the Earth's high latitude ionosphere. In the Earth’s magnetosphere, the currents are driven by the solar wind and interplanetary magnetic field and by bulk motions of plasma through the magnetosphere
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mess ... adoes.html
During its second flyby of the planet on October 6, 2008, MESSENGER discovered that Mercury’s magnetic field can be extremely leaky indeed. The spacecraft encountered magnetic "tornadoes" – twisted bundles of magnetic fields connecting the planetary magnetic field to interplanetary space – that were up to 500 miles wide or a third of the radius of the planet.

"These 'tornadoes' form when magnetic fields carried by the solar wind connect to Mercury's magnetic field," said Slavin. "As the solar wind blows past Mercury's field, these joined magnetic fields are carried with it and twist up into vortex-like structures. These twisted magnetic flux tubes, technically known as flux transfer events, form open windows in the planet's magnetic shield through which the solar wind may enter and directly impact Mercury's surface."
there, got you started... no, nobody has spelled it out for you, mainstream scientists want to keep their jobs and real scientists are too busy uncovering what has been deliberately covered up
jliat wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:45 pm
fire wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:39 pm
my advice to you: forget about searle and trying to understand the chinese room argument, you have demonstrated quite clearly that it is beyond you
It - Searle's argument - relies on the Turning test. You dismiss the test, and with it the argument. I've no need to make any statements about you abilities... your failure to make the argument and attack the person noted.
lol, seriously? how do you think the turing test is relevant except in the sense of its limitations which the chinese room argument illuminates with azure clarity?

the turing test asks: can i be fooled into thinking a robot is aware?

the chinese room argument says: whether you are fooled or not, the machine is not aware
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Re: hey jliat, dogs are smarter than you

Post by jliat » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:44 am

fire wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:44 am
[if you must know: birkeland currents
I must have missed the part where it accounts for the extreme temperatures at the earths core.
( The temperature at the inner core boundary is approximately 5700 K (5400 °C).)
fire wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:44 am
there, got you started... no, nobody has spelled it out for you, mainstream scientists want to keep their jobs and real scientists are too busy uncovering what has been deliberately covered up.
Hardly covered up. But you pick a bit of unrelated mainstream science from a wiki page and seem to imply it accounts for the heat increase as one moves towards the earths core. I'd like evidence please.

fire wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:39 pm
lol, seriously? how do you think the turing test is relevant except in the sense of its limitations which the chinese room argument illuminates with azure clarity?

the turing test asks: can i be fooled into thinking a robot is aware?

the chinese room argument says: whether you are fooled or not, the machine is not aware
No the argument is that a Chinese person is fooled into thinking there is a conscious Chinese person in the room. It then says - 'ah but there isn't anyone in the room who knows Chinese - so passing the test is no indication of consciousness.

The room like the AI HAS TO PASS THE TEST, thus for Searle showing the test to be invalid. That is simulated intelligence is never actual intelligence.

The person like an AI program does not understand Chinese, even though it can convince a Chinese person, Ergo the test is invalid. Failing the test - its obvious no consciousness, but Searle wants to say -likewise passing it says there is no proof of consciousness.

My reply. The person doesn't know Chinese, but together with the set of rules in the books the room (person and books) can simulate Chinese consciousness. Searle has no argument with that, he cant have, its vital to his argument. But the persons inability to understand Chinese is not the whole story, the room does. I say a simulated consciousness is identical to real consciousness if no difference can be found. It might sound crazy but its true. Whether it is electronic, done by looking in books or biological its the results which make for consciousness - not the materials. The person just moves around bit of paper they don't understand. Computers move around bits - in much the same way. But they can do arithmetic. Or would you say a computers arithmetic is not the same as a humans?

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