Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

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TerminallyBlue
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Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by TerminallyBlue » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:44 pm

Hey there.
I've been passivelly loving noise and experimental music for over 10 years now, and even tried to get into dark ambient territory a bit, and recently I've bought some effects and a mixer to try my hand on no input noise. However, I'm haing a really hard time recording it. What I've tried so far:

Integrated sound card: Records a split second then shuts down, possibly a hard noise gate that triggers on sounds that are too loud?
Physical recorder: Tascam DR-05 V2, records, but even at input level 0, I get pretty much instant clipping/peaking. Now, I know that some clipping is obvioíusly beneficial to noise, but it sounds to me like it just annihilates any finer texture I manage to get from my setup. The waveform is just a solid block and while some of the recordings sound ok, some just clip to levels bordering on white noise. So every time I record something I find out that half of it is not even close to how it actually sounded in the first place...
Tape recorder: Nothing. I don't know what the hell is going on there, but it just records silence.

I've seen that at least some members here have experience with no input mixing, so I'm hoping someone will be able to help me. Is there any chance of getting something recorded without spending more money on an external sound card or something like that? Money is kind of an issue, and if I have any to spend on music I'd much rather just get another pedal or something.

Thanks. :)

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Bipolar Fucking Joe
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by Bipolar Fucking Joe » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:48 pm

What mixer do you have?

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crochambeau
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by crochambeau » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:28 pm

Turn *everything* all the way down.

Plug the output into an input with a cable.

Slowly increase gains/levels/EQs until you have a sound.

Explore.

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Fletcher
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by Fletcher » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:51 pm

I have one of these as part of my DJ setup

Image

Plug a usb stick in and it records straight to .wav
Plus you can obviously monitor the output levels and I have 3 channels to play with. Not cheap but was a reasonable deal when bundled in with turntables as well.
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TerminallyBlue
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by TerminallyBlue » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 pm

Bipolar Fucking Joe wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:48 pm
What mixer do you have?
Behringer 802
crochambeau wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:28 pm
Turn *everything* all the way down.

Plug the output into an input with a cable.

Slowly increase gains/levels/EQs until you have a sound.

Explore.
Yeah, I have that part down, I just have a problem actually recording the stuff I get out of it... :(
Fletcher wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:51 pm
I have one of these as part of my DJ setup

Plug a usb stick in and it records straight to .wav
Plus you can obviously monitor the output levels and I have 3 channels to play with. Not cheap but was a reasonable deal when bundled in with turntables as well.
So, you think that there's no way to get recording without additional mixer/audio interface thrown into the mix? I know some people here are using no input for their music, so thought it'll be the best idea to ask here.

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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by s.p.i.n. » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:21 am

TerminallyBlue wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 pm
Behringer 802
Yeah, I have that part down, I just have a problem actually recording the stuff I get out of it... :(
You can run the phones > line in on dr5 = monitor with headphones or computer speakers
I have a dr7 and I do that alot.

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Misomusist
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by Misomusist » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:29 am

Don't go line in, use a mic and move it to the other end of the room. You'll get a better sound and the ambience of the room.
I think trying to quantify music is one of the biggest wastes of time in the world, like discussing your favourite colour or deity or pizza topping. People should realise that and get on with their life.

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Bipolar Fucking Joe
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by Bipolar Fucking Joe » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:16 am

Sorry if this sounds like I'm assuming you're an idiot, but what's your mixer set up look like? Can you MSPaint it together for me?

I really recommend getting an audio interface. They don't have to be expensive, you can pick up a two input one for less than some pedals go for these days, and it'll keep you going for a good while. If you're recording with your MAIN MIX knob low, and it's still just coming out as a clipped mess, then there's something I'm missing.

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crochambeau
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by crochambeau » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:10 pm

TerminallyBlue wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:44 pm
Tape recorder: Nothing. I don't know what the hell is going on there, but it just records silence.
Does your tape recorder work with other sources?

Some mixers want you to activate a control room/monitor button (or make sure your send level isn't buried via an extra knob) to exploit tape outputs.

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Fletcher
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by Fletcher » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:30 pm

s.p.i.n. wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:21 am
TerminallyBlue wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 pm
Behringer 802
Yeah, I have that part down, I just have a problem actually recording the stuff I get out of it... :(
You can run the phones > line in on dr5 = monitor with headphones or computer speakers
I have a dr7 and I do that alot.
This is bugging me now.
Do you get any sound on the monitor output if you plug some headphones or speakers in there? If so you really should be getting some audible master output.
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Misomusist
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by Misomusist » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:33 am

If there is sound, use a mic, it's easy.

Years ago, back in the olden days, I had a USB recorder I used, a cheap $20 deal, nowadays, an old phone (or a new one) with a recording app, somewhere away from the loudest sounds they all have built in mics. No need to spend any money, if you already have access to one.

I have experimented with wrapping them in socks, and stuff, if the noise level is too high, but usually just moving them further from the source is enough.
I think trying to quantify music is one of the biggest wastes of time in the world, like discussing your favourite colour or deity or pizza topping. People should realise that and get on with their life.

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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by Sleep Of Ages » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:20 pm

Are you monitoring the sound thru your mixer headphone out? Try sending this to the recording device instead of the main outs.
Also check the gain knobs (not volume) on channel 1 and 2.
By "no input" you mean you are using pedals in the fx send/return?

I like this gear trouble puzzle threads.
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TerminallyBlue
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by TerminallyBlue » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:16 am

Hey guys, sorry I'm so late with replying, health problems aren't allowing me to be on the PC too much. All replies are very much appreciated!
Bipolar Fucking Joe wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:16 am
Sorry if this sounds like I'm assuming you're an idiot, but what's your mixer set up look like? Can you MSPaint it together for me?

I really recommend getting an audio interface. They don't have to be expensive, you can pick up a two input one for less than some pedals go for these days, and it'll keep you going for a good while. If you're recording with your MAIN MIX knob low, and it's still just coming out as a clipped mess, then there's something I'm missing.
It's really just a mixer and 3 pedals, then I either go the no-input route (in which case I plug in main out L and R to channels 1 and 2 on the mixer and maybe even the control room into the others), or I use something like a tape/radio/etc, in which case I plug that into the pedal chain and plug that into Channel 1 on the mix. Then I use the output RCA -> DR-05. I've played around with it a bit and I am getting *kind of* useful audio, but it still sounds different from the monitoring (less "detailed") or in occassion it completely crumbles and gives up and produces a recording that sounds like a 10th generation cassette. I think it's tripping some internal noise protection mechanism? I guess audio interface will be the best idea. Is there any cheap-ish one you recommend that can be bought in Europe?
Misomusist wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:29 am
Don't go line in, use a mic and move it to the other end of the room. You'll get a better sound and the ambience of the room.
Definitely going to experiment with that too, I even have a few external mics I could use. I would still like to have a clean line in option though, because I'd like to explore more sounds where the ambiance (IMO) doesn't add.
crochambeau wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:10 pm
Does your tape recorder work with other sources?

Some mixers want you to activate a control room/monitor button (or make sure your send level isn't buried via an extra knob) to exploit tape outputs.
OK, this one is entirely on me being an absolute idiot and I'm sorry. I haven't really taped anything in over 15 years so I completely screwed that up. Turns out that I set the deck to "tape", which, being a single tape deck, meant that... well, it didn't record anything, obviously. When I realized it and switched it to external input, it started recording fine. Welp.
Fletcher wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:30 pm
This is bugging me now.
Do you get any sound on the monitor output if you plug some headphones or speakers in there? If so you really should be getting some audible master output.
Sorry if I haven't made myself clear, I'm really new to analog audio and I'm really bad at explaining everything. I am getting output, it's just the finished recording is just way too clipped, and not in a good way, since the DR-05 is peaking even with input level set to minimum.
Sleep Of Ages wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:20 pm
Are you monitoring the sound thru your mixer headphone out? Try sending this to the recording device instead of the main outs.
Also check the gain knobs (not volume) on channel 1 and 2.
By "no input" you mean you are using pedals in the fx send/return?

I like this gear trouble puzzle threads.
I'm using the RCA output on the mix. I actually haven't thought of sending the master/control/headhpone output into the recorder. Maybe that'll help. thanks.
I'm using the outs on the mix to connect with the channel inputs to create a sound.

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crochambeau
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by crochambeau » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:54 pm

If you have resolved the issues of being able to record, it sounds like all you need is a way to attenuate the signal feeding your recorder - which is on a branch just "listening" to your feedback signal, true?

Tons of ways to pad a signal so it doesn't blow out your recording, but before adding additional gear into the mix I would want to be 100% certain you cannot attenuate the signal with what you have on hand.

I use passive attenuators (HP 350 to be exact) to knock +10 dB to -10 dB when needed. I think those are expensive now though, and can be emulated with a simple passive volume control.

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EATyourGuitar
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Re: Another novice seeking advice (No input mixing)

Post by EATyourGuitar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:26 pm

you only need to attenuate

https://koma-elektronik.com/?product=ko ... ator-cable

you can cut up a cable and solder two resistors in a voltage divider. resistors are $0.01 and can be salvaged for free.

http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/

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