Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Talk about music gear for noise music

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Misomusist
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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by Misomusist » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:58 am

crochambeau wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:48 am
MKULTRA wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:30 am
Concur. My background with MilSpec applications, Pre-Gerstner IBM in-house systems and custom part spec fabrications blinds me to companies that don't have a modicum of tolerance on the plus side.
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Been there, done that. Mil-spec is no big whoop, usually just means outdated technology :mrgreen:

Considering the number of high-end companies now under the Music Group umbrella, I can only see things getting more interesting.

If we want to shit speak brands, Nady, no fucking customer support, no parts, it breaks, it's gone.
LOUD Tech (aka Mackie/Crate/Ampeg) awful build quality, weird engineering ideas, and a parts dept that charges you shipping, part by fucking part.
I think trying to quantify music is one of the biggest wastes of time in the world, like discussing your favourite colour or deity or pizza topping. People should realise that and get on with their life.

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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by fire » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:46 am

arf, milspec, a perjorative in many cases, my idiot dad did you mil spec r&d for years, no wonder so much was/is crapola

anyway, OP, if you want that industrial sound, you may want to get the dreaded and never talked about drum machine, and then figure it out, i mean like for real, its not easy

i had one of these, great for industrial...

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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by xdugef » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:07 pm

Here's Uli Behringher making threats to the people who are objecting to him cloning the CEM chips which were designed by the late Doug Curtis, and whose family business is under threat -
"Please keep in mind that making false statements about "ripping off", "copying", “stealing”, etc. is called libel or defamation.
While it is perfectly fine for you to criticize me and the company, perhaps we can at least agree to respect the law on these matters.
I highly support free speech but it comes with responsibility and words do have consequences.
In earlier posts an employee of DSI made false and highly defamatory comments about our company and its products which unfortunately forced us to take legal action.
I understand that we are in a highly passionate and competitive industry where people have their personal views around ethics and morality.
In the past 20 years we haven't lost one single IP court case. If you like to learn more about our legal history, please find the link to an earlier post.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11954278-post158.html
We are committed to never engage in any activity that willfully infringes on the intellectual property rights of any company or individual.
However, we are also aware that legal wrangling will continue as we press on with our philosophy of delivering the best products at the lowest possible cost. Some competitors will view lawsuits or defamation as a good marketing tactic and use it to discredit our company - we will simply have to live with this.
I would like to thank everyone for providing valuable feedback. We are listening.
Thank you.
Uli"
I'm never touching another piece of Behringer gear as long as I live.

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Misomusist
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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by Misomusist » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:20 pm

Making shit that people want from companies that can't be arsed :mrgreen:

You can also get sims of drum machines on a laptop, tablet or old phone, and run it thru FX.
I think trying to quantify music is one of the biggest wastes of time in the world, like discussing your favourite colour or deity or pizza topping. People should realise that and get on with their life.

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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by crochambeau » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:57 pm

Misomusist wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:20 pm
Making shit that people want from companies that can't be arsed :mrgreen:
Seriously dude? This topic goes much deeper than that flippant response. Economics of scale plays a HUGE part in custom IC dies, and a lot of the engineering side small guys often can't carry that. It's not about not being arsed to comply, it's often economically unfeasible when the big guys keep shitting circuits out at bottom dollar. Then to have said big guy turn around and black box the part so they can sidestep a fucking legal loophole all the while being smarmy as fuck about it? I don't see how that earns a shill.
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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by xdugef » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:17 pm

Uli wrote:Technology is free for anyone to use unless it is protected.

....Our patent attorney advised us that the Aphex patent was invalid and I also applied for my own patent (DE3904425), with sponsorship from the acclaimed Fraunhofer Institute, the inventors of MP3. Despite assurances and our own beliefs, we ended up in court where the judge ruled in Aphex’s favor and we lost the case. We paid damages and moved on.
What a cunt .. he goes on to complain about getting sued over and over again even though apparently that is the only way to protect technology... whatever typical corporate scumbag.. he's probably a Trump supporter as well :lol:
What was the failure rate of your gear during the first fifteen years of the company's existence and what was it, (the gear failure rate) in the last year. Straight answers please, I dot want a philosophical response or a summary.
Uli wrote:Perhaps you can also provide some facts around your concerns about "dubious manufacturing methods and inferior parts..."?
LOL.. what an asshole.. I guess no straight answers will be given?

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Misomusist
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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by Misomusist » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:01 pm

crochambeau wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:57 pm
Misomusist wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:20 pm
Making shit that people want from companies that can't be arsed :mrgreen:
Seriously dude? This topic goes much deeper than that flippant response. Economics of scale plays a HUGE part in custom IC dies, and a lot of the engineering side small guys often can't carry that. It's not about not being arsed to comply, it's often economically unfeasible when the big guys keep shitting circuits out at bottom dollar. Then to have said big guy turn around and black box the part so they can sidestep a fucking legal loophole all the while being smarmy as fuck about it? I don't see how that earns a shill.
Wasn't referring to that, no clue what all that's about, but we seem to have gone from questions of reliability, to ones of ethics. Which is questionable in most major companies.

I was referring to their practice of cloning the unobtanium and making it available, if sometimes in slightly tackier plastic form. Which makes them very welcome to many.
I think trying to quantify music is one of the biggest wastes of time in the world, like discussing your favourite colour or deity or pizza topping. People should realise that and get on with their life.

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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by Laura91 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:29 pm

Fuck'em, I say!

Hell, I would rather go with DIY peeps.

I got rid of around a dozen of my mass produced pedals. Fuck it. I wasn't using them anymore anyway.

Some were fucked, though. So, I could only sell them for parts. But, I still got a decent amount of money considering that fact.

Hell, I made enough money to get a proper pick up for the Canjo. Fine and dandy, yo.

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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by crochambeau » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:56 pm

Misomusist wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:01 pm
I was referring to their practice of cloning the unobtanium and making it available, if sometimes in slightly tackier plastic form. Which makes them very welcome to many.
I'm referring to the CEM3340 and other Curtis chips. They were unobtanium for a long while, but the family of designer (Doug Curtis, who died a decade ago) re-released them so they are no longer unobtanium... AND YET:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2017/ ... ug-curtis/

So again, it was not unobtanium, but since Behringer can certainly (legally) knock them off cheaper true CEM may return to that.

Yes, it's an ethics thing, combine that with the cheapest possible production and I quite simply cannot bring myself to support or recommend their wares. Just my opinion, of course. Apologies to the OP for pushing the derail.

haha
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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by Misomusist » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:54 am

I'm still waiting for someone to clone the SAD512 or the Reticon :(

I also don't see the issue, unless Behringer plan to sell the chips by themselves.

It's back to the kinkless tetrode to avoid paying pentode tax days, manufacturers have been doing it for years.
I think trying to quantify music is one of the biggest wastes of time in the world, like discussing your favourite colour or deity or pizza topping. People should realise that and get on with their life.

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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by crochambeau » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:28 am

Misomusist wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:54 am

I also don't see the issue, unless Behringer plan to sell the chips by themselves.
Guess who owns http://coolaudio.com/, look at the March 17th announcement.
Misomusist wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:54 am
I'm still waiting for someone to clone the SAD512 or the Reticon :(
I agree, lets dig into the truly OOP shit and just get along!

Anyway, this discussion is probably not helpful to our friend in Venice.
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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by MKULTRA » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:36 am

Misomusist wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:58 am
crochambeau wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:48 am
MKULTRA wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:30 am
Concur. My background with MilSpec applications, Pre-Gerstner IBM in-house systems and custom part spec fabrications blinds me to companies that don't have a modicum of tolerance on the plus side.
WORDS TO LIVE BY
Been there, done that. Mil-spec is no big whoop, usually just means outdated technology
Been there done that? DO tell. FAA Part 145 qualified repair station? Centralized Repair Activity? It is about a standard of quality, reliabiltiy, ruggedness and durability in the parts used, design and build. A level of excellence that BIG Blue had many years ago adhering to those principles.

Building to a price point and market segment dictates a certain expected level of failure.

Outdated technology? The MPN-14 Radar is still deployed. Late 50's design and tube based.


And pentodes sound very different than tetrodes. EL-34 vs 6CA7

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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by crochambeau » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:59 am

I'm guessing Miso refers to the glut of shit that is marketed as having MILSPEC components culled from the surplus grey market.

That MILSPEC transistor built into a fuzz face or whatever. Sadly the term is thrown around for marketing on stuff that would not pass grade, and so once again we've got an erosion on a term. It has become meaningless.

This is very firmly a "small" builder issue.

Ruggedization is timeless.
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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by MKULTRA » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:19 am

The erosion you mentioned extends to the NOS tube market. I learned this from a surplus dealer/buyer at a DRMO - Defense Reutilization Marketing Office auction( now DLA - Defense Logistics Agency ). This organization deals with surplus DOD goods. It is staggering what was available at these auctions in the late 80's and early 90's. Below is from some forum I've forgotten but describes the situation fairly close to what I was told.

MIL SPEC - JAN= Joint Army Navy

Factories conducted stress tests (above normal 'civilian' specs) on samples of standard tubes. If they survived, the whole lot would be approved (batch approval), and marked with the prefix JAN. The samples that are actually used for the stress tests are discarded. Do remember that the stress tests conducted were on SMALL samples. “ Very interesting thing nobody talks about - especially dealers who have made a living buying old military stock that occasionally pops out of warehouses. What did the government do with tube shipments they received where their spot testing results were not acceptable? Well, in some cases, they sent them back, whereupon the manufacturer sold them into the secondary markets. A lot of those are still floating around today. OR - the government stuck the shipment into a warehouse, and in typical bureaucratic fashion, forgot about them - until some SoCal slickster approaches them with a great offer. Bingo! They are back on the market as super-duper cold war commie beating top grade mil-spec tubes - and sold to you and I, who don't realize that they probably failed the spec test. The VT or JAN designations have too often been assumed in tube folklore to be better tubes. In reality, they may be the rejects. I have occasionally found FIELD STOCK in foreign countries left behind after a war. This is the primo stuff. Not the stuff sitting in a US or UK warehouse.”

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Misomusist
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Re: Beginner Noise Setup Advice

Post by Misomusist » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:27 am

No I think MK hit's the nail, it can take a long time to get a part approved, to appropriate ruggedness, and so most military designs miss out on the 'latest' technologies, like he says 50's based tube gear, still in use. As are probably still 8" disk drives and 4K Bubble ROM packs, which although slightly more recent, were still pretty outmoded.

Genuine MILSPEC does mean that the part should have been burned in though, so it will quash the infant mortality rate of pieces. I remember we used to burn in green screen monitors, I think they cost us maybe 60 quid, you stick them on a jig for burn in, send the chassis out to be powder coated gray and suddenly it's worth 10-20 times that.

Except for boutique builders, I doubt there's many makers that do burn-in tests on their gear. I wonder how many people would select it as an option, you can have the pedal for $20 and if it's broken we'll replace it, or we can test it for you and it's $200.
I think trying to quantify music is one of the biggest wastes of time in the world, like discussing your favourite colour or deity or pizza topping. People should realise that and get on with their life.

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