Noise and Academia

Talk about noise music. Reviews, rants, whatever.

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jliat
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by jliat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:07 am

pazuzu wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:47 am


"Academia" neither is the exclusive home of reasoning and facts, nor are they (as method and thesis) a hard prerequisite for someone working in academia.
Did I say it was so – no – and above I clarified that point... re other 'schools'... later I added its also a place of teaching... critical review etc.
pazuzu wrote:
But that's beside the point. I don't know where, under which circumstances or even if your cited 'essay' was published (did I overlook it on here?), but to count as an academic essay it should've been put forth within the respective circulation, i.e. a journal or at least referenced someplace like academia.edu or researchgate.com. Maybe that's beside the point, too.
Seems so – I was referring to the OP's title...
pazuzu wrote: However, to refute your objection it should suffice to point out that even children write essays in school and are regarded to as such since it is the freest form of writing with - theoretically - very little rules. Quite unacademic.
If the OP's post was of the nature of an unacademic – not “(argument using reason and facts)” but more a child's free form i'd not see the need to argue with any of the points being made. I kind of assumed it was intended to make some case re 'noise' & academia – so responded so. Or did I object, I pointed out to take the essay seriously was to see it as using “(argument using reason and facts)” which I would say is academic, though not it the strict sense of being referenced or published. So an essay can become academic once referenced? And if it fails to be published is not academic. Yet "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity" was published and certainly was not a bona fide paper.
pazuzu wrote:
To spit out your thoughts for others the understand you have to give it some form. Call it a rant post on some message board or, to elevate it's value above that, call it an essay. Or how do you think he could've done so more appropriately?
(To say: Don't make it a subject of discussion at all is different page.)
He chose the form he chose. I previously had used the [rant] [/rant] tags...
pazuzu wrote: Wat.
Insert 'wat' scene from pulp fiction...
pazuzu wrote:
jliat wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:59 am
Now lets imagine no academia, then no history... the stories, musical forms, cultural dependences and influences, use of techniques, and the related technologies simply would not exist. Without the academia, which originated in Greece none of this would be.
I still don't get if your scenario is counterfactual (cf. the Wat above.
cf. the 'Wat' scene in Pulp fiction and you get a cap in your shoulder...
pazuzu wrote: You're contradicting yourself in the very next sentence),
I see no contradiction, i'm arguing that culture is preserved and passed on in a developmental process in academic institutions.. without these or institutions doing the same western culture would be very different. The OP is arguing that academics are parasitical on noise, i'm arguing that its more symbiotic.
pazuzu wrote:
but it sounds like it's not. And if so: bullshit. You make it sound like the institutions dedicated to an object, subject or state of affairs constitute their very existence. That's nonsensical. There has to be a subject matter in order to for an academic discipline to make it it's subject matter,
Not in every case, but to study music I think you need something called music? Which is what your last sentence states, though strictly there is at least one exception. (As far as I can follow your point)
So the first sentence seems odd. Surly 'music' constitutes musicology? To an extent, a foundation.
pazuzu wrote: notwithstanding the refinement of the methods and instruments of a discipline disclosing new, formerly overlooked areas of investigation. The technical possibilities also play a role here. In your defence, I agree that there would be no such thing as history of science, literary studies, musicology, etc. that, in complicating and abstracting from the originally investigated subject matter, can have an retroactive effect on the subject matter as such. See dodecaphonic music for example. But to assume that without academic intervention there would be no use of techniques or development of techniques is a gross exaggeration, dogmatically onesided. We would still do things practise techniques and further develop techniques without science and most definitely without academia. Maybe you've got hung up in some chicken-egg strawman shit here.
Show me a case where developments like those in western civilization in the science and arts took place without academic institutions, or similar. But that of course wouldn't refute that the development of western music, art, science, political thought was thoroughly involved in and with academia. Without institutions for recording, teaching, questioning... the developments – no developments could take place. Other than being lost with each generation. Surly the enfranchisement of education created an audience and practitioners which before education simply did not exist.
pazuzu wrote:
jliat wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:59 am
(that's a Platonic idea - "idea")
No it's not.
I think Plato is associated with developing the idea of idea... but maybe not originating it...
pazuzu wrote:
jliat wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:59 am
melkobukva wrote: The makers are judged by other makers and the consumers based on the quality of their work.
Again - nonsense, firstly unsupported, do we judge your essay so? And 'quality' what does that mean? You once said - fuck quality, just use popularity.
I'm tempted to agree. "Quality of work" is not - or seldom - a ground for judgement about noise. But as you put it, the makers are being judged. So, in order to be regarded as hot shit in noise, you need to be hyped and persistent (Is Vomir still spitting out release after release?)
But who the fuck cares? Dragging such an expectation into noise in the first place equals carrying over a rotten seed. If you need approval, find a group of peers, get intoxicated and play sets for one another.
I'm not sure just what you are driving at here, but Vomir is I think still releasing stuff, as well a more 'acoustic work' under the name Roro Perrot – shit folk. Who the fuck cares, well me.
pazuzu wrote:
There never is. Or rather, there always is (sic!) - see how I go all academia about this shit?
Especially concerning social matters. For the sake of simplicity, the popular opinion constitutes the 'objective judgement' of a subject matter in its time and it stands true for its time, but falls short for another. The examples you've given yourself support that. But mind, the excerpt you're quoting regards the judgement of noisicians by noisicians and noiseheads, not vox populi. I'm sure Pollock was not ridiculed univocally.
“For the sake of simplicity, the popular opinion constitutes the 'objective judgement' of a subject matter in its time and it stands true for its time, “

Well I hope you've got a mass of popular opinion supporting this claim. But no, its not true. If it was then the popular opinion in the USA is that global warming isnt happening, and will remain true for its time.. as well as the existence of a god who created the world on a thursday some 4,000 years ago..

And the genre of noise is and was never popular. And i've offered those who claim to judge a pepsi challenge to spot the differences in HNW, and HN. No takers.

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by WhiteWarlock » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:14 am

Is lecture "free" admission?
Are we required showing our Student ID for attending this lecture?
currently seem to have misplaced all 4 of mine from various prestigious universities
This current Educational "Agenda" is not the "Academia" of Pre-Hellenistic Greece
Nor is modern "Greece" the same DNA as "Ancient" Greeks
"Academia" pre-existed such term for thousands of years
in "Systems" as the "Ancient Mystery Schools" & the "College of the Druids"
(who are cited by "Ancient Greeks" being natural philosophers/sages)
You can not "appropriate" others accomplishments for your personal indoctrinated skew of reality
the merit and hard work of individuals should not just be stolen/laid claim by some senior faculty member
as they actually personally produced no such things beyond the extremely loose association
Do you have an accredited PHD on "Academia"?
Do you think you are "lecturing" to fools?
This is not any personal slam against you
merely notification that we are well aware what has been taking place in modern "Academia"
plus keep in mind some people have an inside view of the machines gears
(and or may be related to people with PHDs on modern "Academia" methods who get free trips to China)
the current system in place is such a corrupted/usurped monstrosity even if it retains the ancient facade
this in fact is our real protest
at the leftist utopian dictatorship currently controlling "Academia"
contemplate these "conspiracy theory" lectures from Charlotte Iserbyt for some perspective:


Last edited by WhiteWarlock on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by WhiteWarlock » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:40 am

my best teachers/mentors were not through formal instituted "Academia"
in fact felt like eye was stuck "schooling" most of my "Academia" teachers
those that didn't "school" had habit of playing in bands with
immersed in other "private" creative ventures generating "funding"
starting extremely epic "Arts Kollectives"
throwing underground Shows & Raves for generating more required "funding" for sustaining
constantly learning new abilities outside of formal "Academia"
producing & evolving "Arts" in various what forms then considered "new/cutting edge"
living in "Arts" buildings and working social circles
figuring out the "Art Scene" games
we did our "Homework"
You can say the "Academia" provided one form of social nexus
yet by no means the only one or most effective utilized
it usually required exceptionally hard work on our own
plus a high degree of damage control skills for surviving soap operas
those are some potential insights for you if actually read this
~raises hand~
can eye be excused from this lecture?
before being forced explaining how things really operate & why
"new noise artiste kids" need comprehending thinking outside the "Skinner Box"
this is your "lecture"

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MKULTRA
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by MKULTRA » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:05 pm


The liberal humanist bent in academia and avoidance of conservative or libertarian viewpoints has destroyed higher education.
"With enough gain you can achieve anything." - C.Rochambeau

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by WhiteWarlock » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:05 pm

How about a "course" on "Noise Arts Grants"?
for all flavors of extremists
not as if many of us here haven't been involved with such before
yet some of us are probably "not eligiable/restricted" anymore
because of "politics"
as if "Academia" does much anyway
beyond read the grant proposal
say "WOW that concept is FAR OUT!"
"bet" you can never pull it off
and if you are in the "cool school clique"
scribble signature on grant check
plus you may need renaming yourself "KommiCzar Kool"
they aren't the ones doing the real work
you better make the deadline in time or it's off to the Gulag!

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jliat
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by jliat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:21 pm

WhiteWarlock wrote: Is lecture "free" admission?
Are we required showing our Student ID for attending this lecture?
This is not a lecture, its an attempt at a discussion about the role of academia in noise.
WhiteWarlock wrote: currently seem to have misplaced all 4 of mine from various prestigious universities
This current Educational "Agenda" is not the "Academia" of Pre-Hellenistic Greece
Nor is modern "Greece" the same DNA as "Ancient" Greeks
"Academia" pre-existed such term for thousands of years
in "Systems" as the "Ancient Mystery Schools" & the "College of the Druids"
Off topic - but so nothing unusual there, BTW the Druids were around after Plato et al. As for ancient mystery schools,
mystery is the word. Yes and we know also modern Egypt isn't the same as the pyramid builder lot. Again not on topic.
WhiteWarlock wrote: (who are cited by "Ancient Greeks" being natural philosophers/sages)
Sage is a herb used in cooking and best left there.
WhiteWarlock wrote: You can not "appropriate" others accomplishments for your personal indoctrinated skew of reality
yes I can and do, and so do you, its called education, and without it there would be no internet and none of us could write or read.
BTW "personal indoctrinated skew " you should think about that expression. It's very like Daric's
WhiteWarlock wrote:
the merit and hard work of individuals should not just be stolen/laid claim by some senior faculty member
Stop telling others what to do - you are not the internet police. Offer some argument which relates to the topic.
As for the stolen laid claim point - please evidence.
WhiteWarlock wrote:
as they actually personally produced no such things beyond the extremely loose association
Do you have an accredited PHD on "Academia"?
Do you think you are "lecturing" to fools?
I'm not the one lecturing. I see no fools here, some have 'crazy' ideas - which is OK.
WhiteWarlock wrote: This is not any personal slam against you
Oh yes it very much is - "do you think..." etc.
WhiteWarlock wrote: merely notification that we are well aware what has been taking place in modern "Academia"
Here is this "we" again - who are you guys. You and Daric? Are you Daric- who the fuck are you? Your real name in the real world.

My bio is freely available, who is the guy who uses the WhiteWarlock monica… I mean we have 'Daric Sun raven claw' sounds like some characters from a bad re make of Harry Potter...
WhiteWarlock wrote:
plus keep in mind some people have an inside view of the machines gears
Yes i'm very aware some have 'mental issues'. i.e. have secret knowledge about stuff, but only they "know".
So they either have health problems or just trying to get laid. And many are in academia...of the latter type.
WhiteWarlock wrote:
(and or may be related to people with PHDs on modern "Academia" methods who get free trips to China)
the current system in place is such a corrupted/usurped monstrosity even if it retains the ancient façade
This sounds like just jealousy, point out the corruption or that is what it is, just envy. BTW i'm well aware of the state of the humanities, (the sokal affair. Etc) but look around you, but also that academia is not responsible for any recent decline in noise. As I said, and gave evidence, it was there from the get go.
WhiteWarlock wrote:
this in fact is our real protest
Not 'our' - yours - your beef is that they get trips to China for free.. Money for nothing - chicks for free.
WhiteWarlock wrote: at the leftist utopian dictatorship currently controlling "Academia"
contemplate these "conspiracy theory" lectures from Charlotte Iserbyt for some perspective:
Now who is lecturing. Talk to Daric, he will tell you i'm stupid to the point of never being able to see the higher truth both you and he have.
:doh:
(I didn't watch the 3 hours + of video lectures you linked - but skimmed. Seems like a female Nigel Farage. Want's the 10 commandments back! But is in a society where is free to say so... :wall: )
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by jliat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:45 pm

MKULTRA wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:05 pm

The liberal humanist bent in academia and avoidance of conservative or libertarian viewpoints has destroyed higher education.


And above is a good example - unsupported statement. No evidence, no attempt at making an argument, just say whatever ...

but i'd say not totally destroyed - evidence. Well academics writing on noise, who? Hegarty, Brassier... people in HE discussing, producing and promoting noise...

and Jaques Attali - though his book written in 1977 well before the noise genre is very interesting.

Quote. "A music produced by each individual for himself, for pleasure outside meaning, usage and exchange"

- the dangers if to be avoided that noise doesn't fall back into old exchange value repetition... "the coexistence of two conditions: tolerance and autonomy. The acceptance of other people, and the ability to do without them"

"Any policy that valorises the usage of objects instead of the means of producing them retards composition"



Attali - Noise - The Political Economy of Music.

(its amazing for unlike many here he sees music as crucial in understanding the world, as predictive - as the most important thing... and noise "by listening to noise, we can better understand where the folly of men and there calculations is leading us, and what hopes it is still possible to have")

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by WhiteWarlock » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:21 am

Image
Off topic - but so nothing unusual there, BTW the Druids were around after Plato et al. As for ancient mystery schools,
mystery is the word. Yes and we know also modern Egypt isn't the same as the pyramid builder lot. Again not on topic.
Euro Pre "Keltoi" 1200bc
Thracians Dacians 1000bc
Iron Age Hallstatt Austria Keltoi culture 800bc-450bc
Κελτοί referring to an ethnic group was by Hecataeus of Miletus 517bc
Plato died 347/348bc
51bc Julius Caesar goes into massive debt
mercilessly slaughters the "cannibal" Gauls
stealing their gold refilling Rome's treasury
52bc SPQR legions use scorched earth policy
siege Vercingetorix at Alesia
Roman treasury refilled
Rome goes on official Bacchanalia month long Holiday/Party
Dacians suffer same fate as Gaul the by Trajan in 106ad
Germania was never conquered by Rome
"stabbed in the back" by "Kabal" in 1918
vanquished invaders until 1945
Who is Taranis?
You may have heard his other name....
THOR
Image
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jliat
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by jliat » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:59 am

WhiteWarlock wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:21 am
Off topic - but so nothing unusual there, BTW the Druids were around after Plato et al. As for ancient mystery schools,
mystery is the word. Yes and we know also modern Egypt isn't the same as the pyramid builder lot. Again not on topic.
Euro Pre "Keltoi" 1200bc
Thracians Dacians 1000bc
Iron Age Hallstatt Keltoi culture 800bc-450bc
Plato died 347/348bc
51bc Julius Caesar goes into massive debt
mercilessly slaughters the "cannibal" Gauls
for stealing their gold refilling Rome's treasury
52bc SPQR legions use scorched earth policy
siege Vercingetorix at Alesia
Roman treasury refilled
Rome goes on official month long Holiday
Germania was never conquered by Rome
"stabbed in the back" in 1918
would vanquish invaders until 1945
The only way i can get this anywhere near the topic is to ask from what non-academic sources you derive the above information.
(and you said druids - not Thracians Dacians)

"Germania was never conquered by Rome
"stabbed in the back" in 1918
would vanquish invaders until 1945"


Napoleon?

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by WhiteWarlock » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:21 am

"Druids" weren't just a bunch of hippies smoking pot listening to Hawkwind @ Stonedhenge

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by WhiteWarlock » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:32 am

not Napoleon
he ran away at Hanau
the "Artsite" formerly known as Adolph
who traded Alien technology and Atomic weapons
so he he could move to Bariloche, Argentina
for perfecting his landscape oil painting technique
that would later be made world famous
by Bob Ross :P
Image
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jliat
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by jliat » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:34 am

WhiteWarlock wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:21 am
"Druids" weren't just a bunch of hippies smoking pot listening to Hawkwind @ Stonedhenge
Yes i know, Ken Barlow AKA William Roache... is one.

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by WhiteWarlock » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:45 am

Does he have bronze age ring from Hallstatt with "Druid" swirls?
How about some from the Iceni?
You remember Boudica?

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WhiteWarlock
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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by WhiteWarlock » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:00 am

How about we become productive and converse about the "techniques" of Schaeffer Stockhausen and/or Boulez?

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Re: Noise and Academia

Post by jliat » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:13 am

WhiteWarlock wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:45 am

You remember Boudica?
I'm old but not that old.

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