My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Talk about noise music. Reviews, rants, whatever.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by xdugef » Tue May 29, 2018 4:37 am

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
xdugef wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm
It's a good thing you are not a veterinarian otherwise all your patients would end up dead in a box.
Actually I think half. Reminds me of the story in America of a Vet who was also a Taxidermist. His slogan was

"Whatever happens you get your dog back"
Those are terrible odds.. in the real world most trips to the vet aren't going to end with the pet getting stuffed by you.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
xdugef wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm
QM may not be simply a matter of opinion but perceptions effect opinions and QM effects our perceptions.. ergo
ergo people jump to wrong conclusions- like thinking everything is relative and its proven by Einstein.
Maybe you should read up on QM and perception.. I'm certainly not claiming to know everything are you?

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
xdugef wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm
If you make "noise" on purpose then it is not noise.
Well write to Roland, Korg, and Yamaha etc and tell them they've been labeling their synths all wrong for decades.
Or Uli... soon all are synths will be sold by him.



jliat wrote: Not a signal. Hammers aren't signals, or a crabs claw.
A sine wave is neither of those things as well..

jliat wrote:One of the aims of using noise to jam radar is not to signal where one is. By your definition one cannot make noise, or generate random numbers by throwing dice or write nonsense. jhgj hn hgdsjh bjsdj nnjsdkjqttwttw.
The intention was to communicate.
Congrats you communicated intentional jibberish!
jliat wrote:Your argument means that its impossible to generate random numbers... simply not true.
Seems like a dubious statement to make considering the amount of effort that has been undertaken in the history of random numbers to make truly random numbers.

Besides I never said any such thing. If the goal is to generate truly random numbers then one will have some criteria for telling if they are actually random or not. Which sounds like a signal with a purpose has been created and then another tool that validates the signal is used to determine if it was successful.

...too be continued

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by xdugef » Tue May 29, 2018 5:24 am

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
No one sitting in an audience will hear the same music, a total loss, I don't think so.
Right but said that noise prevents communication.. so if it's tolerable that the audience can hear different things then it must allowable for them to interpret what they hear and this is the case whether it's Vomir or Mozart (not that I'm comparing the two).

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
If the communication is being jammed by deliberate noise you really shouldn't say a "horrendous amount of noise." An it could be the case that the source of the noise was not known... so it would in your case, might be noise or not. Humans - you say- cannot successfully intend to make noise. Yet they can produce sound which no one can differentiate from natural noise.
Sure .. play me tapes of computer synth foreign dialects and I may not beable to tell you what they are but that doesn't make them noise. The pepsi challenge is hardly a scientific approach to decoding the mysteries of the universe.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
Zebras in question, you cant say if the misspelling was accidental or intentional.
Doesn't matter since the end result is the word zebras.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
If you a priori define noise as only accidental, then no argument can be made to counter it. All I can do is point out your inconsistency in using the term here in application to the "music" produced.
Okay well looks like my work is done here.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
"The goal of the noise wiki is to compile a large database of noise projects and information about noise. "
Yup that's what it says.. are you the noise police?

jliat wrote: Its shortened Rock and Roll - "The phrase "rocking and rolling" originally described the movement of a ship on the ocean,[15] but was used by the early twentieth century, both to describe the spiritual fervor of black church rituals[16] and as a sexual analogy. "


Similarly Noise music is so called because it has the characteristics of natural random noise.. failure to convey specific signifieds - it is a in effect a signified in itself. Similar to non-representation painting. One difference between a Jackson Pollock and a Turner Sunset is in the former there is not signified, unlike the latter is a sign of a signified - a sunset. The painting is a medium for communication of an object, the former it communicates nothing but itself - its painterlyness. Hence its called abstract. You could call noise abstract music.
You got you thumb on the scales there jabroni.. sure it need to be noisey but this bit about failure to convey is all you and a defense of your whole premise.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Tue May 29, 2018 5:36 am

xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 4:37 am

Maybe you should read up on QM and perception.. I'm certainly not claiming to know everything are you?
I've not the maths for one,(though Sokal's fashionable nonsense is a good place to see the abuses of science by the humanities..) perception as in phenomenology I've read some, ' a fundemental mistake to confuse the intended object [of perception] with the object. '

Your claims go further than you think. I claim to be able to make meaningless noise, to write gibberish. You claim this is not possible.
Which is pretty close to some sort of determinism which denies free will.
xdugef wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm
jliat wrote: Not a signal. Hammers aren't signals, or a crabs claw.
A sine wave is neither of those things as well..
And by your logic a one second burst of a 50htz sine wave can have different meanings within the structure of the wave depending on the intention of the creator. Unless its mains hum, then its either God or lacking in any signified.
jliat wrote:One of the aims of using noise to jam radar is not to signal where one is. By your definition one cannot make noise, or generate random numbers by throwing dice or write nonsense. jhgj hn hgdsjh bjsdj nnjsdkjqttwttw.
The intention was to communicate.
xdugef wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm
Congrats you communicated intentional jibberish!
Or next doors cat walked across the keyboard. Looking at the text you've no way of guessing, no 'clues'... There is no way of telling from the text if it was intentional or not, same with sine waves and white noise. The intention is not the object. Language by use of signs conveys a meaning about something. Music does much the same in conventional form. Abstract music, like art conveys or communicates no subject. And when you read this you are doing more than thinking i'm just intending to write words.. well I think you might from your replies...

xdugef wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm
jliat wrote:Your argument means that its impossible to generate random numbers... simply not true.
Seems like a dubious statement to make considering the amount of effort that has been undertaken in the history of random numbers to make truly random numbers.

Besides I never said any such thing. If the goal is to generate truly random numbers then one will have some criteria for telling if they are actually random or not. Which sounds like a signal with a purpose has been created and then another tool that validates the signal is used to determine if it was successful.

...too be continued
You're confusing or conflating a sign system with phenomena. And saying in effect everything humans do, and now everything the cosmos does is a sign system. And as I said we've had this argument before. You say everything anyone does is intentional therefore it must have a meaning - in the broad sense of an intention or cause - but not in the sense to communicate something specific using the structures within a medium. But it doesn't follow. By which in communication we mean the signal is structured to give a meaning, or feeling, its is intended to, or it can be intended not to do so. The intention is not the question, its the thing that the intention creates. I can create gibberish. I can intend to, or I can intend to create sense. The latter can also be gibberish if I fail.

So I can write 'jhjh sdfjdjk sdjdcjjk'

What does it mean. Now I think you are saying 'it means he intended to create gibberish'.

So I can write 'I can see a tree'

To which you can say 'it means he intended to say something'. Are both sentences meaningfully the same? You must say yes. I say no the latter one says I intend to write, and *more* in and with the writing say something specific in addition to mere intention to write arbitrary letters.

All gibbersih, all noise effectively communicates (in your sense) the samething. The intention to make gibberish / noise.

All sentences are not only every just about commuication the intention to write a sentence. They intend reasons using the sentence to say specific different things.

I see a cat.

I see a tree.

You are stupid.

hgdlgjwhg klsdjkkjf fd

sdfhjdsjhdh dfsnfd

fdsfahdh jjjjfgjj

I think the first three might have more meaning than the last 3. But for you i guess #3 is as meaningful as # 4, 5, and 6.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Tue May 29, 2018 6:10 am

xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:24 am
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
No one sitting in an audience will hear the same music, a total loss, I don't think so.
Right but said that noise prevents communication.. so if it's tolerable that the audience can hear different things then it must allowable for them to interpret what they hear and this is the case whether it's Vomir or Mozart (not that I'm comparing the two).
I think you misunderstood - I said making noise prevents communication - that is communication in the noise made. So Vomir cannot communicate some thing. Other than he is making a noise. Unlike Mozart. To interpret Mozart as intending merely to make noise seems to be a conclusion you must make, how else can you tell the difference? What is the difference. If its just that Mozart intended to make music, sure, so do lots of others, so how is Mozart's music different to Vomir, and say Glen Miller.
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:24 am
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
If the communication is being jammed by deliberate noise you really shouldn't say a "horrendous amount of noise." An it could be the case that the source of the noise was not known... so it would in your case, might be noise or not. Humans - you say- cannot successfully intend to make noise. Yet they can produce sound which no one can differentiate from natural noise.
Sure .. play me tapes of computer synth foreign dialects and I may not beable to tell you what they are but that doesn't make them noise. The pepsi challenge is hardly a scientific approach to decoding the mysteries of the universe.
I don't follow this at all. By your definition there can be no synthesised noise. When a scientist uses the term noise, as in FM white noise - he /she means one thing, when they use it in the term 'white noise generator' they are now using the term "as a colloquial term". I beg to differ.
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:24 am

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
Zebras in question, you cant say if the misspelling was accidental or intentional.

Doesn't matter since the end result is the word zebras.

So the intention doesn't matter - yep looks like my work is done here. Noise is noise - Vomir / waterfall accident or intentional...

xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:24 am
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
If you a priori define noise as only accidental, then no argument can be made to counter it. All I can do is point out your inconsistency in using the term here in application to the "music" produced.
Okay well looks like my work is done here.
Your work is certainly done. In the sense you have no work to do. Noise by your definition cannot be deliberate. White noise is just a colloquial term when made using a noise generator, but not on accidentally miss tuning an FM radio, but colloquial when deliberately doing so.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
"The goal of the noise wiki is to compile a large database of noise projects and information about noise. "
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:24 am

Yup that's what it says.. are you the noise police?
Nope - are you the noise Jehovah's witness.?
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:24 am
jliat wrote: Its shortened Rock and Roll - "The phrase "rocking and rolling" originally described the movement of a ship on the ocean,[15] but was used by the early twentieth century, both to describe the spiritual fervor of black church rituals[16] and as a sexual analogy. "


Similarly Noise music is so called because it has the characteristics of natural random noise.. failure to convey specific signifieds - it is a in effect a signified in itself. Similar to non-representation painting. One difference between a Jackson Pollock and a Turner Sunset is in the former there is not signified, unlike the latter is a sign of a signified - a sunset. The painting is a medium for communication of an object, the former it communicates nothing but itself - its painterlyness. Hence its called abstract. You could call noise abstract music.
You got you thumb on the scales there jabroni.. sure it need to be noisey but this bit about failure to convey is all you and a defense of your whole premise.
OK you are saying i'm deliberately cheating - OK we are done.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by xdugef » Tue May 29, 2018 8:44 am

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:36 am
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 4:37 am

Maybe you should read up on QM and perception.. I'm certainly not claiming to know everything are you?
I've not the maths for one,(though Sokal's fashionable nonsense is a good place to see the abuses of science by the humanities..) perception as in phenomenology I've read some, ' a fundemental mistake to confuse the intended object [of perception] with the object. '
No what I'm saying is that it would be hard for somebody to put out a "noise release" without any inherent context and that context gives it meaning.

"Ambiguity means confusion about what is conveyed, since the current context may lead to different interpretations of meaning. Many words in many languages have multiple definitions. Ambiguity is an effect of a rupture of the rule of identity in the context of the exchange of information. Particularly the sender may be physically absent, and the contexts explicitly divergent, such as will be the case when the receptor is a reader and the sender was a writer."
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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by xdugef » Tue May 29, 2018 8:57 am

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:36 am
And by your logic a one second burst of a 50htz sine wave can have different meanings within the structure of the wave depending on the intention of the creator. Unless its mains hum, then its either God or lacking in any signified.
Sure as much as a kick drum somehow has meaning but tones or different types of noise somehow do not.


jliat wrote:Or next doors cat walked across the keyboard. Looking at the text you've no way of guessing, no 'clues'... There is no way of telling from the text if it was intentional or not, same with sine waves and white noise. The intention is not the object. Language by use of signs conveys a meaning about something. Music does much the same in conventional form. Abstract music, like art conveys or communicates no subject. And when you read this you are doing more than thinking i'm just intending to write words.. well I think you might from your replies...
Like I say above meaning comes from context and it's hard to put out a noise release without context.

jliat wrote: You're confusing or conflating a sign system with phenomena. And saying in effect everything humans do, and now everything the cosmos does is a sign system. And as I said we've had this argument before. You say everything anyone does is intentional therefore it must have a meaning - in the broad sense of an intention or cause - but not in the sense to communicate something specific using the structures within a medium. But it doesn't follow. By which in communication we mean the signal is structured to give a meaning, or feeling, its is intended to, or it can be intended not to do so. The intention is not the question, its the thing that the intention creates. I can create gibberish. I can intend to, or I can intend to create sense. The latter can also be gibberish if I fail.
Yes.. that is what contextual meaning is.. you are erroneously equivocating putting noise on a tape for people to listen to with something that happens without human intervention.
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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by xdugef » Tue May 29, 2018 8:58 am

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:36 am
So I can write 'jhjh sdfjdjk sdjdcjjk'

What does it mean. Now I think you are saying 'it means he intended to create gibberish'.
Yup

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by xdugef » Tue May 29, 2018 9:23 am

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:10 am
I think you misunderstood - I said making noise prevents communication - that is communication in the noise made. So Vomir cannot communicate some thing. Other than he is making a noise. Unlike Mozart. To interpret Mozart as intending merely to make noise seems to be a conclusion you must make, how else can you tell the difference? What is the difference. If its just that Mozart intended to make music, sure, so do lots of others, so how is Mozart's music different to Vomir, and say Glen Miller.
But Vomir cannot release noise without any context so his attempts of non communication inherent meaning whether you or he likes it or not.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:10 am
I don't follow this at all. By your definition there can be no synthesised noise. When a scientist uses the term noise, as in FM white noise - he /she means one thing, when they use it in the term 'white noise generator' they are now using the term "as a colloquial term". I beg to differ.
The thing is that scientists really have no bearing on this at all. Like I said noise is being used as a colloquial term to describe a genre of music. Is Heavy Metal to be taken as the literal sounds of engines or music made by "The Blue Heavy Metal People of Uranus"?

If anything you really should stick to the term HNW since what you keep describing is really more along the lines of that. And even then I've heard alot of HNW that probably doesn't qualify.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
Zebras in question, you cant say if the misspelling was accidental or intentional.
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:24 am
Doesn't matter since the end result is the word zebras.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
So the intention doesn't matter - yep looks like my work is done here. Noise is noise - Vomir / waterfall accident or intentional...
With the exception of the unavoidable context. Since the context indicated that you were referring to Zebras then whether you intentionally or accidentally misspelled the word is irrelevant.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
If you a priori define noise as only accidental, then no
Your work is certainly done. In the sense you have no work to do. Noise by your definition cannot be deliberate. White noise is just a colloquial term when made using a noise generator, but not on accidentally miss tuning an FM radio, but colloquial when deliberately doing so.
You have put yourself in a box where the meaning that you want is the only possible conclusion in a context that has nothing to do with music or art. What does science have to say about rock and roll? Heavy metals are on the periodic table.. so are we to assume that heavy metal music is about the elements?
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 am
"The goal of the noise wiki is to compile a large database of noise projects and information about noise. "
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:24 am
Yup that's what it says.. are you the noise police?
Nope - are you the noise Jehovah's witness.?
The jehovahs are annoying but on the scale of who are the bigger assholes.. I'd say it is the police. :lol:
jliat wrote: Similarly Noise music is so called because it has the characteristics of natural random noise.. failure to convey specific signifieds - it is a in effect a signified in itself. Similar to non-representation painting. One difference between a Jackson Pollock and a Turner Sunset is in the former there is not signified, unlike the latter is a sign of a signified - a sunset. The painting is a medium for communication of an object, the former it communicates nothing but itself - its painterlyness. Hence its called abstract. You could call noise abstract music.
Either way both paintings abstract or otherwise are art. Likewise Vomir and Mozart both make music.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by MKULTRA » Tue May 29, 2018 9:24 am

Edit.
Last edited by MKULTRA on Tue May 29, 2018 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Tue May 29, 2018 9:30 am

xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:44 am

No what I'm saying is that it would be hard for somebody to put out a "noise release" without any inherent context and that context gives it meaning.
I've no real argument there, other than when mezbow puts out a CD about Whaling - Bloody Sea, the actual sound is of no clue, anymore that The Rita's Skate and Thousands of Dead Gods one can tell the source...


And of course the context NOW gives meaning NOT the OBJECT, or SOUND. That's just noise. So the context makes it ART or MUSIC.

Smacks of Duchamp's fountain... but what of a noise work not released. It's still noise. Does it even have to be listened to. Noise thus makes some real challenges to 'Music'. Unlike Industrial which often sounds like B movie film soundtracks.

This kind of noise is 'un creative', and is different...

And here we agree "without any inherent context " is typical of noise UNLIKE music. Noise is without any inherent context, made by man, woman, or nature. Everything is external, saving whales or killing sharks...

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Tue May 29, 2018 9:42 am

xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:57 am
Like I say above meaning comes from context and it's hard to put out a noise release without context.
And in the case of a noise release that's all, as I said the form of the noise expresses nothing but that, so one gets no meaning from listening... it should be obvious - you can't miss an important part of a Vomir track. You don't have to listen to much at all... unlike reading a book... or skipping the last movement of Beethoven's 9th.
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:57 am
Yes.. that is what contextual meaning is.. you are erroneously equivocating putting noise on a tape for people to listen to with something that happens without human intervention.

No argument about the context, its about the content. That is what differentiates noise from traditional music. Mozart and Vomir have pretty much the same context, so for you the same meaning. No true - Ode to Joy has much more meaning in the content. Vomir's has none.


Listening to a Vomir track is equivalent to listening to a thunderstorm in its content. Its the act of non creativity in making the tape that singles out noise from traditional music making.

As i say - i think i can make something which has no meaning - you are the police here who says - NO YOU CANT, NOT BY MY RULES...

I can record a noise tape and burry it in the garden- oh - against XD's LAW.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Tue May 29, 2018 9:43 am

xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:58 am
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:36 am
So I can write 'jhjh sdfjdjk sdjdcjjk'

What does it mean. Now I think you are saying 'it means he intended to create gibberish'.
Yup
THOUGHT POLICE EDIT!

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by xdugef » Tue May 29, 2018 9:51 am

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:42 am
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:57 am
Like I say above meaning comes from context and it's hard to put out a noise release without context.
And in the case of a noise release that's all, as I said the form of the noise expresses nothing but that, so one gets no meaning from listening... it should be obvious - you can't miss an important part of a Vomir track. You don't have to listen to much at all... unlike reading a book... or skipping the last movement of Beethoven's 9th.
No they get a meaning.. as much as a listening to a repetitive drum beat has meaning.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:42 am
No argument about the context, its about the content. That is what differentiates noise from traditional music. Mozart and Vomir have pretty much the same context, so for you the same meaning. No true - Ode to Joy has much more meaning in the content. Vomir's has none.
That is called moving the goal posts..
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:42 am
Listening to a Vomir track is equivalent to listening to a thunderstorm in its content. Its the act of non creativity in making the tape that singles out noise from traditional music making.
No it would only be equivalent to listening to a recording of a thunderstorm.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:42 am
As i say - i think i can make something which has no meaning - you are the police here who says - NO YOU CANT, NOT BY MY RULES...

I can record a noise tape and burry it in the garden- oh - against XD's LAW.
Well you've told me about it so you've already given it context and meaning.. the content thanks to post modernism is irrelevant.

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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by jliat » Tue May 29, 2018 9:56 am

xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:23 am

Either way both paintings abstract or otherwise are art. Likewise Vomir and Mozart both make music.
One by virtue of content, the other context, sufficent for many to say Vomir does not make music or -

"I threw all my past music career in the garbage. There was no longer any need for concepts like 'career' and 'skill'. I stopped playing music and went in search of an alternative."


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Re: My name is Oliver Tex and I make noise

Post by xdugef » Tue May 29, 2018 10:15 am

jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:56 am
xdugef wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:23 am

Either way both paintings abstract or otherwise are art. Likewise Vomir and Mozart both make music.
One by virtue of content, the other context, sufficent for many to say Vomir does not make music or -
The same has been said of canvases painted black.. yet those paintings are still hung in museums and are considered art.
jliat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:56 am
"I threw all my past music career in the garbage. There was no longer any need for concepts like 'career' and 'skill'. I stopped playing music and went in search of an alternative."

Yet he gives interviews to music magazines, performs in music venues and releases recordings on labels that also release more accessible music :chin:

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